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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 29, 2024 0:54:53 GMT
I'm sure Steve (aka Mr. Muffin) won't mind me posting this custom-run Boston & Albany A1 Berk here, since he's already "sold out" (according to his email blast tonight).
It's quite a beauty, and I'm sorry I had to pass on it. The initial artistic renderings didn't do this color combination justice. The contrasting black, green and silver show off the detail magnificently. There were just too many other heavy-duty, big-ticket items colliding on the 4th Quarter 2024 shipping schedule. And sadly, we all have our limits. For those who pre-ordered this, ENJOY!!!
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Post by harmonyards on Oct 29, 2024 1:20:19 GMT
They missed the green color by about 2 or 3 trillion miles.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 29, 2024 1:34:38 GMT
They missed the green color by about 2 or 3 trillion miles. I guess my ignorance is bliss. Lionel seems to have quite a difficult time coordinating the proper green. I'm pleased with the green that they used on the D&RGW Triplex and the D&RGW Mogul. Why did they miss the mark on the Berk? And this was a custom-run no less. I thought I recall a production sample of the boiler body that was shown a couple of months ago. Did anyone raise this issue then? Or did the factory switch shades of green after the production sample was sent to Lionel?
Hmmm... perhaps this won't be a sell-out after all.
But if this is wrong, then you better voice your concerns with Steve (aka Mr. Muffin)... because there's a matching set of Atlas-O Premier passenger cars being made for delivery next year.
Good gosh!!! Life shouldn't be this difficult. But as I've often stated, TOO MANY trains are being manufactured... and too many important elements fall through the cracks.
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Post by harmonyards on Oct 29, 2024 1:45:14 GMT
They missed the green color by about 2 or 3 trillion miles. I guess my ignorance is bliss. Lionel seems to have quite a difficult time coordinating the proper green. I'm pleased with the green that they used on the D&RGW Triplex and the D&RGW Mogul. Why did they miss the mark on the Berk? And this was a custom-run no less. I thought I recall a production sample of the boiler body that was shown a couple of months ago. Did anyone raise this issue then? Or did the factory switch shades of green after the production sample was sent to Lionel?
Hmmm... perhaps this won't be a sell-out after all.
But if this is wrong, then you better voice your concerns with Steve (aka Mr. Muffin)... because there's a matching set of Atlas-O Premier passenger cars being made for delivery next year.
Good gosh!!! Life shouldn't be this difficult. But as I've often stated, TOO MANY trains are being manufactured... and too many important elements fall through the cracks.
I didn’t order one ….they’ve been missing the mark for quite some time now, …..I don’t know how they let this stuff fall through the cracks, …it’s pretty pathetic for those of us that would like some scale fidelity, ….I don’t fault those that love it for what it is, that’s y’all’s choice and I’m glad y’all are happy,……but for some of us, a growing segment of this hobby is scale realism, …..what’s a rub is how much they put out there in their videos how much research they do on these models, ….they meaning Lionel, not Mr.Steve, …..Sadly, Mr. Steve is collateral damage for this nonsense……I mean, how friggin hard id it for the overseas vendor to take a selfie with a painted sample, and they can view it that way?  ……good grief on their part!!…..
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 29, 2024 2:08:03 GMT
Oh boy... I think a batch of these are gonna find their way to after-market artisans for some subtle weathering effects, in an effort to mitigate the color problem for those who are disappointed with the out-of-the-box green color. I've seen some real cool weathering effects that will ease the pain. However, Lionel should pick up the tab, if this falls short in the eyes of most buyers.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Oct 29, 2024 2:09:32 GMT
The old saying that there is many a slip between the cup and the lip appears to apply to coffee, and color. Maybe if we all view these engines with rose color glasses in the short term color wise the green is not so noticeable. Black engines may not be so bad after all.
No criticsm of Mr. Muffin.
IMO Harmonyards is on to something. The current/emerging high roller Lionel buyer is looking for a product which is more prototypically correct in color and detail.
However Lionel seems to be somewhere in transition or certainly in the middle between that expectation of greater accuracy and 'toylike'.
At these prices you can't have it both ways. Legacy features are just lip stick on a pig for the prototypical operator for whom correct color among other aspects, of the model are critical.
Cool is not correct.
Correct is cool, and required by a substantial number of realistic O scale modelers.
I am not one of those in the absolute (more impressionistic with realism thrown in) however I appreciated the disappointment of those who aspire to achieve this level of accuracy.
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Post by superwarp1 on Oct 29, 2024 2:31:22 GMT
Mine‘s gonna get delivered Thursday and I already got Pat set up next year to repaint it. Supposed to look like this is an HO model from a few years back  |
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 29, 2024 2:52:01 GMT
... IMO Harmonyards is on to something. The emerging high roller Lionel buyer is looking for a product which is more prototypically correct in color and detail. However Lionel seems to be somewhere in transition or certainly in the middle between that expectation of great accuracy and 'toylike'. At these prices you can't have it both ways. Legacy features are just lip stick on a pig for the prototypical operator. Cool is not correct. Correct is cool, and required.
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Post by harmonyards on Oct 29, 2024 10:02:56 GMT
I’m sorry, & believe me, I like Lionel just like the next guy, but it would be way better at this point to offer these models as an unpainted option. At least it won’t be a disappointment.
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Post by madockawando on Oct 29, 2024 10:34:23 GMT
I'm sorry but I cannot tell the difference in color between the actual model at Mr. Muffin's and the "what it should look like" HO model further down. The next obvious question is "how do you know the HO model is correct?" And from there I would ask: "What reference do we have so that we know for sure what the correct color looked like?
Of course, there is the point that the colors in photos can be effected by the light source in which they were taken. Do we know that the photo of the locomotive at Mr. Muffin's reflects what a person would see at Mr. Muffins?
Here's an other logical point: Given that a century ago, railroads did not have high tech, computerized paint mixing and paint application. This would have resulted in subtle variations in color shades across the locomotive fleet. On top of that, paint would fade, get dirty and the actual locomotives would not look like the original color and as well as not even look like each other.
My point is, there are to many variables and questions here before we jump into yet another "Lionel screwed up the paint again."
You guys waited long enough for this locomotive, why can't you all simply have fun running it on your layout?
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MartyE
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Post by MartyE on Oct 29, 2024 11:11:23 GMT
Personally I'd wait until it's in your hands to judge. Too many variables with lighting and all.
I agree the HO model to me looks more "mint" I guess than Mr. Muffins but again I'd want to see it in person or hear it from someone who's seen it.
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Post by superwarp1 on Oct 29, 2024 11:19:40 GMT
Personally I'd wait until it's in your hands to judge. Too many variables with lighting and all.
I agree the HO model to me looks more "mint" I guess than Mr. Muffins but again I'd want to see it in person or hear it from someone who's seen it. Mine shows up Thursday, video to come. I'll compare it to my Kline green berk, and my MTH green B&A Hudson. I was going to get a weathering job either way but I think Pat will be changing the green as well.
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Post by superwarp1 on Oct 29, 2024 11:21:12 GMT
I'm sorry but I cannot tell the difference in color between the actual model at Mr. Muffin's and the "what it should look like" HO model further down. The next obvious question is "how do you know the HO model is correct?" And from there I would ask: "What reference do we have so that we know for sure what the correct color looked like? Well, no one knows what green the B&A used. There are no color photos anywhere. With that said, I prefer my engines not to glow in the dark.
I will say this, this is the last Lionel engine I pre-order. Ever since the mogul debacle almost ten years ago, I've been screwed on everyone in one way or another. No more.
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Post by harmonyards on Oct 29, 2024 12:47:59 GMT
I'm sorry but I cannot tell the difference in color between the actual model at Mr. Muffin's and the "what it should look like" HO model further down. The next obvious question is "how do you know the HO model is correct?" And from there I would ask: "What reference do we have so that we know for sure what the correct color looked like? Of course, there is the point that the colors in photos can be effected by the light source in which they were taken. Do we know that the photo of the locomotive at Mr. Muffin's reflects what a person would see at Mr. Muffins? Here's an other logical point: Given that a century ago, railroads did not have high tech, computerized paint mixing and paint application. This would have resulted in subtle variations in color shades across the locomotive fleet. On top of that, paint would fade, get dirty and the actual locomotives would not look like the original color and as well as not even look like each other. My point is, there are to many variables and questions here before we jump into yet another "Lionel screwed up the paint again." You guys waited long enough for this locomotive, why can't you all simply have fun running it on your layout? Because some of us pay for, and want some accuracy given the price point, and how your buddies at Lionel praise themselves on research. We think we’re getting something at least reasonably close……..there’s a segment of this hobby that isn’t looking just to “run” it on the layout and be happy. It’s called modeling. The first word in Model Railroading….to “model”. Some of us aren’t just here to play and take whatever Lionel decides to attempt to cram down our throats, and drain our wallets……Someone like myself, with accurate scenery, accurate rolling stock, & details out the whazzzoo, isn’t going to be satisfied with an engine that they put the lime in the coconut. They screwed the pooch, yet again,…..
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Post by runamuckchuck on Oct 29, 2024 13:54:59 GMT
If you look at my 'likes' in this thread you might believe that I have multiple personalities who are not speaking to one another. It is because IMO there are valid aspects of contention from a number of posters.
For instance as has been stated there are no color photographs for this engine. When and who decided that the green of the HO model is or should be the reference for this Lionel engine to match? Was the green color for this RR used in the more recent past and from that actual sighting or photograph(s) we conclude which is the proper shade/hue of green?
On the other hand Lionel goes to great length to extoll their research to offer a more prototypically correct product. If so other than their own in-house capabilities, who or what do they consult/confer with?
If Lionel is performing their due research diligence, and in this case the offerer of the custom run is satisfied with the process and all parties sign of on the project; that leaves only one source for this particular problem; the paint source.
Or does it? Are these engine primed before the finish coat is applied, or is the 'finish' coat the only paint applied? If primed is the finish coat interacting with the primer to make the color off? I don't know I am just asking.
However while the paint source may be the origin of the problem where does QC come in? Who is comparing the paint spec with the finished product? Is close being good enough the inspection criteria be it in China of NC?
To my uniformed eye the difference in the paint is both in shade and hue from a richer deeper green to more lime like which gives the appearance of a brighter hue. If it is obvious to me, it would be and is painfully obvious to those who care.
Of course the proof will be in person viewing in real daylight rather than a photo/video no matter how well taken.
The cost which detail and accuracy command in this era of high priced engines must recognize and meet the higher expectations for realism buyers of these engines require. We are no longer in the realm of toys when it comes to Legacy/Vision Line.
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……good grief on their part!!…..
