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Post by rockymountaineer on Dec 2, 2023 14:55:41 GMT
So you all know that I'm as objective as can be, when it comes to reviewing a product. When a supplier hits a grand slam, I say it. And when they make a major faux-pax, I'm never shy to call them out on it either. We speak the good and the bad here. And I make no apologies for it.
Sadly, this post is gonna be one of the latter. And OGF is the perfect place to say it, because threads don't get deleted for calling out the truth. And this is the truth: Lionel is producing FAR TOO MANY products these days. And with few exceptions, they've lost complete control of what comes out of the factory. It appears the ONLY time products meet the bar is when production is closely supervised. Failing that, THIS is what we get:
Meanwhile, 2023's Big Book (Volume 1 Catalog) showed the following:
Take note, mind you. This is not some starter set that's gonna get tossed within days of presents being opened under the tree at Christmastime. This is Lionel's flagship Christmas passenger set that stickers at a staggering $1,800 MSRP for all 7 cars. ABS plastic cars too -- not the preferred aluminum cars of years ago. And then you're looking at another $1,100 to $1,400 street-prices for either of the matching locomotives (E8 diesels or F-19 steamer).
Did Lionel Stateside not see the final cars that were produced? And if they did, how could they in good conscience ship faulty products to their dealers/distributors anyway???
Lionel's "party line" when the company switched from aluminum to ABS plastic construction was that aluminum was getting far too expensive to procure, and sources were getting scarce. Going the ABS route would be LESS expensive with fewer production delays and less waste of materials. So they said. I say... WHAT. A. CROCK!!!
PLASTIC cars are now priced at over $200 MSRP per car. The StationSounds cars have now hit the $450 MSRP mark. And Lionel claims their 21" ABS passenger cars are now EASIER for buyers to add their own passengers after the fact. That's right... most of these 21" premium-class coach cars don't even come with passengers included, when we fork out all these hard-earned dollars.
So with all of that said, is it really too much to expect the ULTIMATE in product quality?
Apparently so... because a basic spelling mistake slipped through the cracks on this set. Note to Lionel's factory: It's YULETIDE -- not YUELTIDE for gosh sakes!!!!!
Yes... I suppose it's true that "factory errors" always occurred from time to time -- even back in the Lionel Toy Corporation's glory days. But those were one-off factory errors that were easily fixed with an exchange -- not misspellings in an entire production run. And who APPROVED this? Anyone? Or were they too busy overseeing other projects? If the latter, then the answer is simple. Offer LESS products. Closely supervise ALL the products. And manufacture the ones you do offer better. Capiche???
Today is Saturday. Lionel is closed. But Monday morning I'll be calling Lionel customer service to see what the story is behind this faux-pax, and to see what they're going to do about it. If the answer is NOTHING... or if they try to spin this off as some unique variation of spelling in a remote part of the world... then I'm returning the 4-pack and 2-pack that I purchased locally at Nicholas Smith Trains for a full refund -- not store credit. And as a dealer with clout, Nicholas Smith Trains will have to deal with Lionel in terms of moving forward with products that don't pass muster. There's just no excuse for this nonsense.
The irony behind this is that I've typically passed on Lionel's 21" passenger cars nowadays -- instead preferring MTH's 18" cars. They look better on most layouts. They come with passengers already installed. And the quality is tried-and-true. The only time I look toward Lionel is for the special-effects sound cars. And for that reason alone, I'm inclined to keep the StationSounds Dining Car of this set... and I'll run it with MTH Christmas passenger cars I already own. Plus, I pre-ordered the StationSounds Diner back at catalog pre-order time, when dealer prices were significantly discounted off MSRP.
THIS set is undoubtedly quite attractive. And it wasn't until Lionel offered a matching paint scheme when they announced the F-19 steamers that I decided to spring for the entire set along with the locomotive. Something special for Christmastime. Or so I thought. I passed on the E-8's and have no regrets on that decision. Given the choice between diesel and steam, I'll mostly choose steam. And I'm apparently not alone. The Christmas F-19 has reportedly sold well with dealer pre-orders... so much so that the big dealers grabbed the remaining North Pole Central passenger cars from Lionel AND increased their asking prices!!! If they haven't already sold-out, some dealers are now asking full MSRP. But I wonder how long that's gonna fly, once word gets out that Lionel's factory made another screw-up in the production process. Dealers won't be able to give these away, if Lionel doesn't step up to the plate and issue a new car with the correct spelling of YULETIDE.
So at a time when Lionel is delivering PALLETS of toy train products to dealers this month, train shop employees will now have to deal with product returns if they're not already busy enough picking, packing and shipping product orders. Between the color problems with prototype Dreyfus models... and now an annoying misspelling that mars an otherwise eye-catching passenger set, I'd hate to be caught in the middle of so many customers returning faulty products. But if Lionel won't stand behind their mistakes, then returning faulty products for a full refund is the only way to go.
I'll keep you posted next week, after I call Lionel customer service on Monday.
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Post by trainman9 on Dec 2, 2023 15:32:54 GMT
Lionel is not the only toy manufacturer that has eliminated passengers. Lemax, manufacturer of toy amusements, eliminated passengers on its carousels. Now if you want passengers you need to get them from a third party who makes them using 3D printing and you need to paint them yourself. The ones from china don’t match.
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Post by trainman9 on Dec 2, 2023 15:35:46 GMT
I have a Lionel Station Sounds board that I got a number of years ago as a backup in my ESE Diner. I wonder if anyone is interested in them to make their own Stations Sound Diner.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Dec 2, 2023 15:49:40 GMT
I'm just thinking out loud here... haven't talked with anyone yet. Dealer opens at 11AM today, and I won't get a chance to talk with Lionel until Monday. But I suppose one possible solution would be for Lionel to supply a correctly spelled "YULETIDE" placard that can attach to the side of the coach. Would be even nicer if Lionel offers to make the change for anyone who ships the car back to North Carolina (on Lionel's dime of course). Or at the very least, it's a placard with a peel-off film adhesive that can be easily applied by the customer.
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Post by rtraincollector on Dec 2, 2023 16:20:45 GMT
To me Lionel is going to eventually price/product them selves out of business. To me they have no real quality control, from what I read from others. Yes I probably hear about 80% of the bad and maybe about 5% of the actual good, as people are more to blast about bad than good, there are a few who do it both ways which is good for the hobby, more so than those who only do the negative.
But I just can't see paying the prices they ask. Yes MTH prices are up there to, but I rather pay there prices for rolling stock than what Lionel wants.
Bachmann has just about ended Williams, I think they bought it just to keep someone else from doing it.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Dec 2, 2023 16:38:45 GMT
To me Lionel is going to eventually price/product them selves out of business. To me they have no real quality control, from what I read from others. Yes I probably hear about 80% of the bad and maybe about 5% of the actual good, as people are more to blast about bad than good, there are a few who do it both ways which is good for the hobby, more so than those who only do the negative.
But I just can't see paying the prices they ask. Yes MTH prices are up there to, but I rather pay there prices for rolling stock than what Lionel wants.
Bachmann has just about ended Williams, I think they bought it just to keep someone else from doing it.
There have been naming clangers before and I am looking at one right now ("Bucyrus Eric" on a Legacy operating crane car). But "Yueltide" on a high end set is just a nonsense.
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Post by healey36 on Dec 2, 2023 16:44:21 GMT
This is what happens when there's only one major manufacturer in the marketplace. Jack prices, poor designs, disinterest in quality control, all with a perception of a "captured" clientele. In this case a trifecta of incompetence; left the factory with the error, wasn't caught by incoming QC, and then was shipped to paying customers with the error. For all we know, Lionel sent the Chinese manufacturer a design with the misspelling. It would be pretty hilarious if not so disappointing.
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Post by josef on Dec 2, 2023 17:18:36 GMT
Another reason I stay away from newly released Lionel Products and don't even consider any BTOs.
If I really, really want a Lionel made product I'll wait and get one on the secondary market after its been proven and tested by consumers.
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Post by Adam on Dec 2, 2023 17:36:25 GMT
Another reason I stay away from newly released Lionel Products and don't even consider any BTOs. If I really, really want a Lionel made product I'll wait and get one on the secondary market after its been proven and tested by consumers. I agree, if it’s not in stock I don’t order/buy it. |
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Post by josef on Dec 2, 2023 18:07:12 GMT
I have wondered lately how much control does Lionel, if any on the products they catalogue and sell, or if the made in china factory is not only the supplier to Lionel but also have a hand to keep factory open and workers working are the ones that bring ideas forward? Maybe, just maybe, the new introductions (well, not really new, just paint and name changes to existing molds), come from the Chinese and Lionel then produces a Wish Book Catalogue by what the Chinese introduce to the market using Lionel's name to sell the product.
Using Lionel name to sell Chinese produced products? Because if I was Lionel, no way would I want my name on a shoddy product, which has been rampant lately.
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armyranger
Full Member
"Give Me Liberty, Or Give Me Death"
Posts: 137
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Post by armyranger on Dec 2, 2023 19:32:47 GMT
Thats the reason I own/operate only PW Lionel. I'll NEVER buy the "china made" junk. NEVER
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Post by af3020 on Dec 2, 2023 19:44:56 GMT
So maybe it's really an acronym - Y U Expect Lionel To Inspect Defective Exports ...just a thought.  |
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Post by david1 on Dec 2, 2023 19:50:55 GMT
I have found that pre-2007 the train build quality was much better, that is why now I stick with tmcc locomotives. Yes I have a few legacy locomotives but I never pre-order. I wait and see the results after they are delivered.
The BTO system of ordering took Lionels responsibility of what is delivered from them to the buyer.
They know a vast majority of the buyers will take delivery of the item no matter how it shows up. From reading other forums that is exactly what they are doing with the Dreyfus hudson. Some are taking them as is and others are having them repainted at their expense. Are you kidding me. The cost for the complete set was in the $3,000 range and your going to pay another entity to correct what Lionel should have delivered.
Fools are always separated from their money!! Sad!!
Dave
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Post by rockymountaineer on Dec 2, 2023 22:22:38 GMT
... They know a vast majority of the buyers will take delivery of the item no matter how it shows up. From reading other forums that is exactly what they are doing with the Dreyfus hudson. Some are taking them as is and others are having them repainted at their expense. Are you kidding me. The cost for the complete set was in the $3,000 range and your going to pay another entity to correct what Lionel should have delivered. ... The first thing I thought about when reading through Lionel's prototype Dreyfus color horror stories over on the other forum was: Harry Hieke (or some other after-market craftsman) is gonna be VERY busy fixing Lionel's mistakes. I vividly recall the N&W "J" debacle a few years ago when the maroon stripe on many of the J-models was erroneously produced with an almost pink-hue. Harry was contracted to fix the mess afterwords. And his small basement shop was reportedly jammed packed with Lionel 611 J's.
Obviously, nothing has changed. Apparently the same flawed production procedures are in place resulting in similar customer disappointment with the prototype Dreyfus models and now this North Pole Central passenger coach. I'd often go head-to-head with the other forum's management on these and other production issues, because they wouldn't allow us to talk freely about an "ad sponsor" in such a candid way. So I told them to stick their moderator's keyboard where the sun doesn't shine. And shortly thereafter, my account was disabled.
As for the "YUELTIDE" problem surrounding the North Pole Central passenger car, Lionel should step up to the plate and provide a solution. It's the right thing to do. And we'll see what they say Monday, if I can actually speak to a real person.
These issues do have an impact on business though. Today I visited Hennings Trains in Lansdale, PA. They had yet to hear about the "YUELTIDE" misspelling, so Lionel has apparently shipped these sets to distributors and shops on the QT. But I'll tell you this. Henning's had a special 10% discount on all new Lionel in-stock merchandise as part of a promo for National Lionel Train Day today. One of the items in their display case was an eye-catching set of Sleighbell Limited E-8's that match the North Pole Central passenger cars. WITH sales tax included, a pair of those matching E-8's would have cost $1025 out-the-door. Not exactly chump change, but as decent a price as I've seen for the recently released Legacy E-8's (when buying local). Yet I walked away empty-handed, because I don't know that I'm gonna keep my set of passenger cars -- especially if Lionel doesn't admit the problem and address it. So why have engines on my roster with no passenger cars? At least when the F-19 steamer (my preference) arrives next year, I can run it with MTH Christmas passenger cars already on my roster.
So not only is Lionel potentially jeopardizing a sale of the passenger cars at Nicholas Smith Trains... they also cost Henning's Trains a locomotive sale today. So this kind of quality nonsense definitely has repercussions. Exactly HOW DEEP the repercussions go depends on how willing customers are to take a stand... and not put up with this kind of crap anymore. Enough said.
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Post by healey36 on Dec 2, 2023 22:45:22 GMT
So maybe it's really an acronym - Y U Expect Lionel To Inspect Defective Exports ...just a thought. hehehe...
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