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Post by rockymountaineer on Dec 6, 2023 1:43:18 GMT
I wish all you guys luck in your dealings with Lionel Dave Dave, I'm now out of the loop on this one. The 4-pack and 2-pack were returned to the dealer today for a full REFUND. The store manager would have much preferred to leave the funds as a store credit, but I insisted on a refund given the circumstances around this situation.
I guess my final word on this is Lionel really needs to clean up its act. And unless more of us return flawed products, Lionel is gonna continue with these shoddy business practices. I did receive two additional email replies this afternoon from both a TALKTOUS team rep as well as a LionelStore rep -- both of whom were very polite to work with. Both reiterated yesterday's message. The irony about today's reply though was one email stated the YUELTIDE car was manufactured exactly as pictured in product page graphics on www.lionel.com as well as www.lionelstore.com.
To be fair... both these links will show the misspelled car name -- although you'll need a magnifying glass to actually read the graphics. HOWEVER, if we look at the online 2023 Big Book located at www.lionel.com/catalogs, the car name is correctly illustrated as YULETIDE on Page 172. But Lionel doesn't wanna acknowledge that reference. Enough said.
So if you're often wondering what the true cost of incompetence is -- especially in an era when nobody is held accountability for anything -- let me tell you. Ultimately, incompetence breeds more incompetence on the supply side. And it pits good people against each other on the consumer and sales channels side.
Sure... I got my full refund today. But whether I enjoy shopping there again remains to be seen. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt (because they were kind enough to work with me THIS time). But stores change. People change. Relationships change. AND THE WAY WE SHOP GOING FORWARD WILL LIKELY CHANGE. It HAS to. If a shop chooses to enforce a "no refunds" policy in the future, then that means I can only purchase something there AFTER I see the product with my own eyes... AND test it on the dealers layout before walking out the door with it (i.e., for locomotives and operating accessories). Unfortunately, having parts of a "set" delivered MONTHS apart only complicates the feeling of being confident about one's purchases.
Gone is the nice, easy-going atmosphere and give-and-take relationship that gets established after decades of buying product at a train shop. And that's a darn shame. The shop manager agreed Lionel needs to do a better job with these kinds of quality issues. But that's not gonna change their desire to strongly enforce a "no refunds -- store credit only" policy as printed on their sales receipt.
It's just much easier for Lionel to sit back quietly... say nothing... and let unsuspecting buyers discover these issues on their own and in their own time -- unless of course they apprise themselves of accurate information they read here. Failing that, the vicious cycle of disappointment, frustration and bad blood starts all over again each and every time.
OTOH, if you wait until the product ships to dealers, prices are often much higher... and you might even need to shop at different dealers for different parts of the set, since dealers will likely be sold out of some items in the set... which complicates matters even further.
Signing off on this topic. Best of luck to anyone else who needs to pursue remedies regarding this passenger set going forward with Lionel... as it might very well be an exercise in futility.
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Post by david1 on Dec 6, 2023 2:16:39 GMT
David, Glad it worked out for you. Glad your here on the OGF. BTW over 100 people on the OGF got banned after that thread kept criticizing Lionel about the mistakes made.
Also the Lionel fanboys are out on other forums saying it was no big deal and other good thoughts about Lionel.
A couple of things I heard about the Dreyfus, the color is fine, you know the color faded on the real one over time, get it repainted, mistakes happen and other nonsense.
Dave
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bob
New Member
Posts: 49
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Post by bob on Dec 6, 2023 3:10:19 GMT
BTW over 100 people on the OGF got banned after that thread kept criticizing Lionel about the mistakes made. Dave
Dave, you're a good guy but my BS-o-meter is going off after that statement. Were there even 100 people who posted to that thread? What's the source of this information?
Thanks,
Bob
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Post by bobthetrainguy on Dec 6, 2023 3:27:26 GMT
BTW over 100 people on the OGF got banned after that thread kept criticizing Lionel about the mistakes made. Dave Dave, you're a good guy but my BS-o-meter is going off after that statement. Were there even 100 people who posted to that thread? What's the source of this information? Thanks, Bob
I heard the same. So many people are livid over the 20th Century Limited’s color and stripe mismatch that they came to complain in that thread. I think it was similar where the cars came out first, and then people were stuck with wrong color cars, or forced to buy a locomotive whose stripes didn’t match. They had so many complaints, they were banning people left and right for copyright infringement when they posted catalog pictures. The powers that be don’t want you to believe there is a problem.
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Post by david1 on Dec 6, 2023 3:56:40 GMT
I heard the same thing from a guy who got banned along with two Of his friends. If I'm wrong I will say so but I doubt it.
Btw I read every post on that thread that was 16 pages long and to be honest people are upset of spending near $3000 for the engine and cars and nothing matches and the color of the Dreyfus is laughingly wrong. They have every right to be angry.
Also Lionel is a big advertiser and that forum is protecting them and they think themselves. Sounds like what our government is doing to the American people.
Dave
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Post by mrmeep on Dec 6, 2023 5:19:28 GMT
While I am no longer a member of the "competition" forum
(got booted years ago) I can still go and see/read the posts.
Even with the deletion of the criticisms of Lionel, they
still keep popping up over there in increasing numbers. So
even the "elite" "can't stop the signal" from coming through
LOUD AND CLEAR about Lionel's shortcomings.
Sad. The arrogance and incompetence.
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armyranger
Full Member
"Give Me Liberty, Or Give Me Death"
Posts: 137
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Post by armyranger on Dec 6, 2023 12:29:11 GMT
I see GRJ is still "over there". He really gave the his new #90 a bad rap. But hey: his one of the "chiefs". AA wouldnt dare say anything bad about Lionel BS products. .Got banned years ago also. LOL JMHO
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Post by runamuckchuck on Dec 6, 2023 13:40:44 GMT
Well it looks as though I may be the standard bearer for this thread from here on out.
However since the issue has been staked out and eloquently expressed by RM I will only report on the response or lack of it that I get from Lionel. Everything you need to know about this situation is already in the tread. No need to rehash.
My dealer has given me options which I would characterize as generous, thoughtful and considerate certainly exemplifying the best aspects of customer service.
But the clock is ticking Lionel.
One last comment about Lionel's response thus far. To say that they have no responsibility for producing a misspelled car because that's the way it was shown in the catalog is beyond shameful, and characterizes the deepest form of corporate denial. This is especially true as an individual elsewhere claimed that he had personally alerted Lionel to the error when the catalog first came out.
The outcome for my set is still in limbo, however my future relationship with BTO is not.
Lionel has actually helped me remember the difference between wants and needs which is easy to do with an obsessive and dare I say compulsive hobby.
Sometimes the best deal is the deal that you don't make.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Dec 6, 2023 16:18:03 GMT
... One last comment about Lionel's response thus far. To say that they have no responsibility for producing a misspelled car because that's the way it was shown in the catalog is beyond shameful, and characterizes the deepest form of corporate denial. This is especially true as an individual elsewhere claimed that he had personally alerted Lionel to the error when the catalog first came out. The outcome for my set is still in limbo, however my future relationship with BTO is not. ...
If I thought it would help, I'd send this little jewel from McDonalds to Lionel and suggest they implement this quality review for every product that ships out of North Carolina. But it would only fall on deaf ears.
On a more serious note though... you know in a little over a month's time, Lionel will be releasing their 2024 Big Book catalog. They'll be doing Ryan & Dave shows along with Trainworld Live social media events like none of these issues ever occurred. They'll be in complete denial. And it's only for INDEPENDENT platforms like OGF, where we can talk openly about these issues, so buyers are aware of what they're purchasing. It disgusts me that OGR management kowtows to Lionel by deleting threads and banning members, whenever the temperature gets a bit too uncomfortable for Lionel. They are an ad sponsor over there, and Lionel don't hesitate to throw their weight around. I know that to be the case all too well.
But the fact remains: WE did not cause these problems. They are self-inflicted by incompetence and poor judgment. If these glitches happened once, we'd understand. And if Lionel would step up and own a mistake by making good on it with buyers, we'd sing their praises. But there's a clear pattern of treating customers with arrogance like we're fools.
For that reason, I pretty much buy AFTER products are delivered. I did that with The Train Loft's custom-run Big Boy. I waited to see what was delivered and THEN made a purchasing decision. The spirit of BTO only comes when confidence is earned. And Lionel clearly hasn't earned anyone's pre-order confidence recently -- ESPECIALLY WHERE DEPOSITS ARE REQUIRED. Dealers are living in the dark ages, if they expect folks to pay a deposit AND then pay a monthly nut so the product is fully paid when Lionel ships the finished product. NO THANK YOU. I'll manage my finances accordingly, thank you very much. And pay ONLY when I can see the final product with my own eyes. If it sells out, then so be it. Just wasn't meant to be then. And even if the dealer doesn't require a deposit, I reserve the right to SEE what Lionel delivered BEFORE the dealer ships it to me. And if the dealer doesn't like those terms, then they can look for a different customer. That's my BTO mantra going forward.
I hope things work out for you, Chuck.
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Post by atsda on Dec 6, 2023 18:57:02 GMT
Post by steveoncattailcreek on Dec 4, 2023 at 9:32pm
Dec 4, 2023 at 9:12pm atsda said:
Rockymountaineer, Tell us about how you really feel about Lionel. Alfred
Yeah, all this beating around the bush and happy-facing is getting old!
My comment was to introduce some levity into the thread. In fact, I don’t mind hearing all the stories and opinions; even though I don’t buy recently manufactured products. (I buy post war equipment on the secondary market.).
The comments about the difference in the printed and online catalog has me wondering whether Lionel caught the error in print, and made a correction in the digital form.
It would be interesting to know how communication occurs between stateside and oversees – Is there a Lionel representative / team overseas and if so, whether they have any clout in making quality control changes, and if not, how responsible / interested in products is the foreign team? – Do they have a concept about the importance of uniformity in model production?
In any case, Lionel (as well as other corporate entities), should take responsibility and meet customer demands for quality products, and not leave the returns/ refunds to the intermediate sellers. Alfred
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Post by Country Joe on Dec 6, 2023 19:30:06 GMT
What Lionel is doing is shameful but then we live in a time when shameful behavior is celebrated. I will not be buying anything Lionel anytime soon.
Lionel used to mean quality. Sadly, that is no longer true. 👎
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Post by runamuckchuck on Dec 6, 2023 20:30:50 GMT
To disagree slightly with Country Joe, the problem IMO is more about inconsistent quality with Lionel's products. Some are home runs such as RM's Lionel Store Exclusive Dreyfuss, others merely place, and then you get the bombs. You never know which Lionel type of product is going to show up.
Long ago McDonalds of all places won some of the highest ratings for quality in the restaurant category (not just fast food). The reason? CONSISTENCY. The Quarter Pounder meal you got in Spokane was identical to the Quarter Pounder meal you got in Bangor. Consistency is the bedrock upon which quality is built.
It seems to me that there is a disconnect between the folks producing the print catalog and the on line catalog. Another little noticed (but mentioned by Ryan in their video of the 2023 catalog) discrepancy concerned the cab number on the Philadelphia & Reading Russian Decapod being reversed. Again one catalog was right the other wrong.
IMO the in print catalog is evidencing sporadic errors which the on line catalog corrects. That is logical time line wise. However it seems as though the in print catalog is the one that gets passed onto the factory with the mistakes; not the corrected on line version. This is where the break down appears to be happening.
For these types of production errors the cause is in the catalog department not a factory in China.
The rest of the story.
My dealer and I have reached an amicable accommodation for the Yuletide car which is fair to both parties while not leaving Lionel off the hook. Because of the sensitive nature of the arrangement I cannot reveal the dealer or the details.
But as RM has said this is a water shed moment for me BTO wise as well. Rather than looking forward to the items that I preordered from the last catalog, I await each delivery with trepidation as to what this time? This is especially dicey for me as my layout is seasonal. I suppose I will have to invest in a test track and roller blocks since anything that arrives during the summer will not be returnable by the time my layout is operational again.
The 2024 catalog dog and pony show will be coming to a store or screen near you shortly and rather than committing with enthusiasm to such things as the promised scale Halloween passenger cars I will hesitate or leave things to chance.
One of the casualties of Lionel's missteps may be the disappearance of the no deposit preorders. How can a dealer continue to take the risk of substantial cancellations or returns.
Even the dealers who state that BTO order deposits are nonrefundable if canceled are at risk as the assumption is that you changed your mind, or over indulged, not manufacturer mistakes or product failures. Will/do these same dealers allow the deposit to apply to a different purchase when manufacturer failures are the reason to cancel?
Who knew it was this much work to spend money?
What a formidable coalition consumers and dealers/distributors would make to get the attention of manufacturers not making the grade. We all suffer. We should all advocate for change together.
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Post by Country Joe on Dec 7, 2023 2:31:19 GMT
What Lionel is doing is shameful but then we live in a time when shameful behavior is celebrated. I will not be buying anything Lionel anytime soon. Lionel used to mean quality. Sadly, that is no longer true. 👎 What I wrote above is not really clear. Lionel’s response to the “Yuletide” car is shameful. Their QC issues the last 5-10 years is not shameful but the result of very poor management. I had the good fortune to meet Wolfgang Richter about 25 years ago. Wolfgang and his brother Eberhard founded the LGB brand for E.P. Lehman. At the time everything LGB was made in Germany. The quality was outstanding but the prices were high and LGB was looking for a way to become more competitive so they were going to have some of their line made in China. I asked if that would compromise LGB’s quality and he said that both very good quality trains and lesser quality trains were made in the same factory. The difference was how much oversight the brand exercised and how tolerant they were of inferior manufacturing. LGB would inspect all China made products and anything less than German quality would be rejected and not paid for. Obviously Lionel doesn’t practice any oversight nor do they demand quality from their Chinese partners. If Wolfgang was running Lionel he wouldn’t tolerate the poor quality of some of their products. He wouldn’t tell customers that they didn’t look close enough at the catalog so now they are stuck with cars with Yuletide misspelled on the side.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Dec 7, 2023 2:57:51 GMT
... Who knew it was this much work to spend money? ... Therein is yet another cost of incompetence: namely a chain of situations spiraling out of control due to absurdities that should never have happened. In this case, Lionel is "standing behind" a misspelling, because that's presumably the artwork that was sent to the overseas factory. The fact that it was wrong is of no consequence. It's what they sent to the factory. Therefore the factory did its job. Yet we KNOW the misspelling was discovered, because it was corrected in the online catalog located on www.lionel.com/catalogs. And we also know from this little episode that there's no onsite supervision of the factory, or the error would have been spotted before the cars even made their way into production. Another poor judgment call.
The irony here is the solution is so simple. Costly? Perhaps. But simple nonetheless. Lionel either re-issues a new shell with the correctly spelled YULETIDE car name. Or they take a much less expensive alternative by providing a color-coordinated badge with permanent self-adhesive mounting to cover up the misspelling. Either approach would result in satisfied buyers as well as happy dealers who don't need to manage this mess on a one-by-one case.
Small mom-and-pop shops can't play this card. But large Lionel-direct dealers can. Here's what I'd do, if I were a large dealer. First, I'd pay Lionel only for 3/4 the internal cost of the passenger car 4-pack. And I'd sell the 4-pack minus the flawed car at a reduced price. I'd gather all the flawed YUELTIDE cars and ship them back to Lionel with the reduced invoice payment. This keeps some skin in the game on Lionel's part, since they're not getting paid for a full 4-pack. Likewise, it preserves the sales transaction's integrity for folks who now have a 6-car passenger set and potentially a locomotive as well. Because aside from this mess and Lionel's initial denial that a problem even exists, the passenger set has quite an attractive appearance.
Look... I wasn't born yesterday. Lionel could still decide not to do anything. But at least at that point, they're wasting THEIR money -- not the dealer's or consumer's money. OTOH, if they choose to make things right and provide a correctly made car to complete the full 7-car set, then AND ONLY THEN will they get paid for the new car however its delivered: either a brand new shell or the original shell with a badge covering the misspelling.
Chuck, I'm glad to hear you've reached an amicable solution with your dealer. Maintaining good communications and keeping the dealer/consumer relationship intact is key. Don't let Lionel's incompetence and poor judgment muddy the waters and cause hard feelings between you and your dealer. BTW, I understand your desire to keep the arrangement on the QT. I have no idea if what I proposed here is even in the same ballpark as the arrangement you've settled upon with your supplier. And you're under obligation to say either way. I just think the approach I outlined above is really a win/win for all parties involved... and it holds Lionel's feet to the fire, if they wanna ultimately get paid for the product. Otherwise they have no incentive to do a darn thing, because "doing what's right" doesn't cut it in their boardroom offices.
Again... a small mom-and-pop dealer will have no clout here. It's gotta be done by a LARGE dealer with huge cojones or a handful of such large dealers, because it'll take an enormous groundswell to force the issue with Lionel management. As I've said, Lionel leadership is already focused on new products in the upcoming 2024 catalog(s). The stuff we're talking about here is old news to them, and they just wanna bury it in the past -- especially if dealers/distributors have already paid for their product shipments.
You're absolutely 1,000% correct though. Spending good money on quality products shouldn't be this difficult.
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Post by Traindiesel! on Dec 7, 2023 8:40:43 GMT
“Again... a small mom-and-pop dealer will have no clout here. It's gotta be done by a LARGE dealer with huge cojones or a handful of such large dealers, because it'll take an enormous groundswell to force the issue with Lionel management.”
This, or something similar, may already be happening. One of the dealers I occasionally buy from seems to be taking a stand.
Over two years ago I ordered the Lionel Strasburg Decapod #90. This past October I received an email from the dealer stating that because of the large amount of cancelled Lionel orders they will no longer take any orders for Lionel products, and all current Lionel orders will be cancelled.
WHAT??!!
That was followed up moments later with another email to me personally and a phone call telling me that my order will not be cancelled and I’ll receive an invoice when the locomotive arrives. Probably because I never cancelled an order with them.
However, once I saw the Strasburg Decapods showing up I checked my order on the dealer’s website and it showed my order was also cancelled. I immediately called the customer service rep that informed me my order wouldn’t be cancelled and she apologized for the mix up and sent me the invoice which I promptly paid.
So it seems this particular dealer has had it with Lionel. But at the same time it was difficult to spend my money!! 
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