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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 15, 2022 4:52:04 GMT
Approaching midnight... and I just completed my 2nd pass through Lionel's new 2022 catalog. Bottom line... gotta admit I do enjoy looking through a catalog. And while MTH will tell us six ways to Sunday why they don't "need" a catalog anymore, I don't buy it.
If you get past the really expensive stuff, there are some nice REASONABLE dealer price-points for gems scattered throughout the catalog: some nice Christmas & Polar Express rolling stock add-ons, 3 more Wings of Angels boxcars, a cool Budweiser tank car, and a Lionel Ale Elevated Tank accessory (which is actually a re-catalog'd item)... just to name a few.
Honestly, the more I look through the catalog... the more I find these little gems to be more appealing than some of the big-ticket items this year. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I splurged a bit on some of the 2021 items after they were delivered. So this might be the year to take a breather... and just enjoying a few goodies here and there without feeling burdened by the escalating prices of the super-detailed scale stuff.
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Post by Traindiesel! on Jan 15, 2022 6:50:17 GMT
<abbr>.... </abbr> I'll be interested to see it, if only for details that I don't already know about the CAB3 system (especially its price!) ....
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 15, 2022 14:17:43 GMT
As I mentioned when the new command system was previewed, it IS compatible with current Legacy CAB2 remotes. That's now mentioned several places in this catalog.
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Post by Adam on Jan 15, 2022 14:35:13 GMT
To me, a catalog is dangerous on the wallet. If that's not an issue for others, then I agree, having a catalog to flip through is fun.
Kinda wish I hadn't opened it because now a couple of things are calling me and I really don't want to spend that kind of money right now.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 15, 2022 14:47:01 GMT
To me, a catalog is dangerous on the wallet. If that's not an issue for others, then I agree, having a catalog to flip through is fun. Kinda wish I hadn't opened it because now a couple of things are calling me and I really don't want to spend that kind of money right now. It's a double-edge sword. Catalogs require DISCIPLINE!!!!  Without discipline, the products will grow on you -- even the stuff you KNOW is way overpriced. Lionel knows this well. And they count on it.
OTOH, as I've already mentioned in other threads... I do prefer having a catalog (vs. not having one) to at least have "some" semblance of what's coming out in the next 12-18 months. But I also know there will be new special-runs from various dealers and clubs announced along the way too. So stay tuned for those. Some have already announced 2022 deliveries... and more will be announced in the next few days. Lionel's catalog pre-order window is a short one this year... just one month with pre-order deadlines in the Feb 11th-15th range.
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Post by josef on Jan 15, 2022 14:50:28 GMT
To me, a catalog is dangerous on the wallet. If that's not an issue for others, then I agree, having a catalog to flip through is fun. Kinda wish I hadn't opened it because now a couple of things are calling me and I really don't want to spend that kind of money right now. LOL, I agree. There were a couple of items I would like to acquire, but the outlay, makes it easy for me to not purchase, nor what little was done to improve upon or added to old MTHs molds they came from.
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Post by Charlie on Jan 15, 2022 14:56:06 GMT
Watching the Ryan & Dave Show, although the Cab3 app is free, it was mentioned that if you want to use your Cab2 remote with the Cab3 base there will be a $29.99 upgrade charge for the app. I'm not clear about the CAB2 with the new base costing anything as there is no APP needed. However, to answer David's question, it would be better to think of the APP as two different programs. There is a basic free version called "Cab3B" Bluetooth. If you buy a new engine like the Class A and others moving forward, you can use the "Cab3L". The Cab3L is the same app with additional features "unlocked" from the basic version. The purchase of the Base3 will get you a code that will allow you to download the unlocked App for free, or should I say, no additional charge. Now, where Lionel IS going to charge, is if I DO NOT have a new (Class A in this case) engine, but I really want to use the new Base 3 AND use my smart device, than I can buy the unlocked app (I think for 29.99) and have control of all Lionel engines (TMCC, LC, LC+, Legacy) but again, the operator will be doing this from a smart phone, not a remote (Cab1/Cab2). I personally have no interest in a phone to control speed as I really like the dial, but everything else I am ok with. The reality is the best controller would have been a CAB2 with a better screen. I have no clue as to why the new interest in CAB1L is so strong. Without a screen, it makes setting up and running multiple trains much harder, not impossible, but harder. As had been said for a long time, maybe even Mike Wolf started this, the days of stand alone remotes are coming to a close and the move to smart devices (phone, tablets) are the future. I did not say I like it, but I also see no reason to fight it. Hope that helps. Charlie
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 15, 2022 15:04:16 GMT
Thanks, Charlie. That makes more sense now.
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Post by kstrains on Jan 15, 2022 16:06:04 GMT
Actually, from the Dave & Ryan show on Facebook, you are given redemption code to use Cab3L part of App for Free when purchasing the the Base 3. If you want to use Cab3L part of the App with Base2 or LCS WiFi, you have to purchase the app for the $29.99. Ryan did not mention you get access to Cab3L part of the App with a redemption code with the purchase of Class A engine.
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Post by Charlie on Jan 15, 2022 16:28:04 GMT
Actually, from the Dave & Ryan show on Facebook, you are given redemption code to use Cab3L part of App for Free when purchasing the the Base 3. If you want to use Cab3L part of the App with Base2 or LCS WiFi, you have to purchase the app for the $29.99. Ryan did not mention you get access to Cab3L part of the App with the purchase of Class A engine. Ken, you are correct, I said "with the purchase of the engine" but I should have said with the "purchase of the Base3". I made the correction in my post above. Since this is such new technology, I'm sure there will be information that will be changed/modified etc. It might be best to have a unique thread to save these types of discussions. Charlie
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Post by northstar on Jan 15, 2022 16:42:03 GMT
The NS 40th Anniversary set seems to be very nice. $1200 MSRP does not make it that nice though! I think Lionel could have done some more development of Christmas items. The sets are being rehashed again. I miss MTH Christmas offerings each year. The only thing that might interest me is the Night Before Christmas Illuminated Boxcar. The trees are lighted on one side with LEDs. Not going to preorder, but something I might consider when delivered to dealers. I agree that one of the things I miss most about the old MTH is the disappearance of their Christmas items. They really pushed out a lot of new innovative things, including the charging lights, lights on the cars and engines, lighted snowmen, trees, etc. All of that is what cause Lionel to start doing similar things with their new Christmas products. I agree that there was little new wow in their Christmas lineup this year, but like you, will be considering the Polar Express cars with the lighted trees.
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Post by sdivtim on Jan 16, 2022 3:50:45 GMT
Maybe a Santa Fe 5000
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Post by Traindiesel! on Jan 16, 2022 7:44:48 GMT
After looking through the online catalog, this thing should have been released back during Halloween. Those MSRP's are scary!!
Going through and semi-conservitively making a list of items I liked, wanted and wish I could get the catalog price total came to $13,625. Even back in the day when I was spending money on trains like a drunken sailor I never had to spend anything near that for twice as many items. Yeah, I know, me and everyone else. But now with less competition, Lionel (and yes the others too), have turned into the model train version of Mr. Potter! And I do not buy locomotives that I already have just to upgrade the electronics. But this catalog contains some things I didn't know I wanted. I'm sorry to say I'm not seeing the value in these products anymore. I'm glad I bought when the pricing was competitive and during the famous 'blowouts'.
Here's my wish list:
2231490 Norfolk & Western Class A 2-6-6-4 #1210-WWII (Just because)
2226870 Santa Fe VISION LINE Stock Car 3 Pack (Haven't bought any of these before)
2231142 Santa Fe Texas 2-10-4 #5022 (5022 ran on PRR rails, and I'm getting to like big Santa Fe steam)
2231380 Southern Pacific A-1 Berkshire 2-8-4 (It looks beastly yet cool and operated not far away)
2231570 Strasburg 0-6-0 #31 (It's Strasburg. I miss going there)
2232080 PRR 0-4-0 #477 (These little guys are growing on me, plus it's PRR)
2233361 Penn Central RS-27 #2407 (I love everything Penn Central. And the RS-27 was only done in ProtoSounds 1.0. Cool it'll now be Legacy)
2233362 Penn Central RS-27 #2409
2233780 Amtrak Phase IV ‘Cabbage’ #90229 (I have a plethora of Amtrak equipment so I need these... I mean I'd like to have these on the roster)
2233800 Amtrak Veterans ‘Cabbage’ #90208
2233580 Aberdeen, Carolina & Western F9 AB (No other reason than it looks so darn pretty. Perfect for my made up excursion train power or just to haul freight)
2226430 Union Pacific Rocket Booster Flatcar 5 Pack w/Rocket (Just so cool looking. I have enough UP power that I only want the add on cars)
2243150 Union Pacific Rocket Idler Car 6 Pack
684028 BNSF Rotary Gondola 4 Pack (All these rotaries to add to the ones I have)
684005 CSX Rotary Gondola 4 Pack
684010 Union Pacific Rotary Gondola 4 Pack
684015 Norfolk Southern Rotary Gondola 4 Pack
2243260 Union Pacific Ore Car 6 Pack (Again, to add to ore cars I have to make the train longer)
2243270 Union Pacific Ore Car 6 Pack
Its doubtful much if any of this will appear on Penn American Railroad rails. Mr. Potter would bankrupt me!
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 16, 2022 13:57:04 GMT
Brian, there are those on social media who refuse to talk about price. One FB group actually warned its members that they'd be suspended for talking price. I just laughed when I saw that moderator's post. True... the prices are what they are. But your wish-list just proves my point completely... that this catalog is finally the one where the absurdity of prices will lead a critical mass of people to just walk away. Ryan Kunkle may have been right on the mark, when he said he hopes folks will find one or two items in this catalog that they wanna add to their collection. OTOH, even that might be a stretch.
The really tough reckoning is gonna be with large dealers as to whether or how much they pre-order extra BTO goodies beyond actual customer pre-orders. That's a lot of money to tie up on pure speculation in this kind of market at these prices.
To anyone who has even "some" history with toy trains, Lionel's value proposition for items in this catalog is broken... gone... poof... out the window. The price points in this catalog are downright laughable. And each pass through the catalog just highlights another comparison point that leaves one shaking his or her head in disbelief. Just imagine the price of a measly SW-1 is almost approaching that of the DIE-CAST ES44's of several years ago. Or doubling the MSRP of items based on MTH tooling "just because they can". Case in point: the prices of Bobber Caboose and Baywindow Caboose offerings matching the absurd asking prices of eBay shysters. Nice going Lionel. Is that really the company you wanna keep?
Perhaps the biggest irony of all? Lionel is doing this EVEN WHEN SO MANY OF US ALREADY HAVE MORE TRAINS THAN WE'LL EVER NEED. There isn't a better time that I can remember, where folks can literally AFFORD TO WALK AWAY and not miss out on anything. Redirect your funds to layout-expansion or layout upgrades. But don't waste money on overpriced, superfluous purchases just to fit Lionel's bloated business model.
To a degree, I understand some social media moderators who wanna stick their head in the sand as a means of maintaining a relationship with Lionel. I get that. However, what I don't get is ignoring the fact that this catalog is sadly a case of "the emperor with no clothes" come to real life. We can all slap each other on the back and build our pre-order wish-lists like money is no object. Or we can shake our heads with the realization that Lionel has finally pushed the envelope too far this time with a value proposition that is clearly teetering on the edge of being permanently broken.
I definitely know where I stand... and I'm going out with a bang. I splurged a bit on some recently delivered Lionel goodies from their 2021 catalog(s). And for 2022 I already have a few MTH special-run offerings, a cool METCA Lionel Lifesavers trailer-on-flatcar offering, as well as a Henning's Trains special-run of New Hope & Ivyland RR ore cars (by RMT) on pre-order. So this is a PERFECT time for me to sit this catalog out for now, and not get caught up in the latest hype. Instead, maybe I'll purchase something on sale after products hit the street later in the year or early in 2023. Should be an interesting year to say the least.
Definitely a space and time worth watching... IMHO of course. 
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Post by JKP on Jan 16, 2022 16:50:43 GMT
I ordered the UP F7AA set from CharlesRo yesterday, that is it for me. I don't want to pass those up. I have a set of Williams F7 UP, these will be a big upgrade. I'm not interested in the selling price of their rolling stock or cabooses. Im planning on going to Amherst in a few weeks, hopefully Ill find a few things I'm looking for, and hopefully one of these days those MTH anouncements will have something I want.
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