|
Post by MartyE on Nov 4, 2024 13:13:58 GMT
But we all do have a dog in this fight. Lionel is a "pre-order" company now and if you want to order something to ensure you get one, the artwork is all you can go on.
Now, sure you can "refuse delivery" but that only hurts the local hobby shops.
Even if someone is just a "Lionel apologist", they should want Lionel to get things right - or at least match their artwork - so they will survive for the long term and be able to continue to make high-dollar scale, detailed, locomotives. It costs next to nothing to get matching/correct colors - or at least not fluorescent shades that are awful looking.
I've refused delivery before. The shop can send back the item in question or resell it. In my case when I've had a physical issue such as something broken or missing parts the shop I deal with, specifically because of this, usually has more than one and will replace it before I leave the shop. Unfortunately a paint issue is something that can't be fixed with a new one.
I 100% agree that there have been too many paint issues and this is something should have been addressed.
|
|
|
Post by harborbelt70 on Nov 4, 2024 13:31:30 GMT
I agree - even though I don't have a dog in this particular color fight. The shoddy workmanship/assembly Gary mentions has become the norm as respects Lionel's overseas manufacturing. I have no more patience with this and may join the club that doesn't even look at Lionel catalogs.
I think that the last home run Lionel hit was the VL Niagara but even that has issues (traction tires wrong size and replacing them is near impossible) that indicate to me an incomprehensible lack of design and quality control. So does the failure even to acknowledge offers of help. But we all do have a dog in this fight. Lionel is a "pre-order" company now and if you want to order something to ensure you get one, the artwork is all you can go on.
Now, sure you can "refuse delivery" but that only hurts the local hobby shops.
Even if someone is just a "Lionel apologist", they should want Lionel to get things right - or at least match their artwork - so they will survive for the long term and be able to continue to make high-dollar scale, detailed, locomotives. It costs next to nothing to get matching/correct colors - or at least not fluorescent shades that are awful looking.
Yes, I see your point. I've known for years that the catalog artwork is unreliable and I've concluded that Lionel is mostly incapable of getting it right - someone just doesn't check to prevent errors. I have to acknowledge exceptions when they happen (2013 and 2022 SP Daylight colors is what I have in mind) but these are truly exceptional - as if they happened by accident.
My protest is not buying a new/special run loco from Lionel because it's a risky and expensive proposition.
|
|
|
Post by josef on Nov 4, 2024 14:48:22 GMT
Reading about the B&A Berkshire and its coloring/painting of the Lionel release, as usual a BTO controversy comes up. What I gathered and looking at many pages on the internet, there was a question by a modeler on and if the Tenders of those painted green engines also had their Tenders painted green. The reply was from a railroader who had a friend that worked and was knowledgeable of the B & A and his reply was that the Berkshires Tenders were kept black and that the engines had a "Olive Green" paint color.
I should add, this reply was from 2010. I'm just glad that Lionel wasn't in charge of my new pickup truck painting.
|
|
|
Post by madockawando on Nov 4, 2024 14:52:42 GMT
|
|
|
Post by harmonyards on Nov 4, 2024 16:13:16 GMT
I agree - even though I don't have a dog in this particular color fight. The shoddy workmanship/assembly Gary mentions has become the norm as respects Lionel's overseas manufacturing. I have no more patience with this and may join the club that doesn't even look at Lionel catalogs.
I think that the last home run Lionel hit was the VL Niagara but even that has issues (traction tires wrong size and replacing them is near impossible) that indicate to me an incomprehensible lack of design and quality control. So does the failure even to acknowledge offers of help. But we all do have a dog in this fight. Lionel is a "pre-order" company now and if you want to order something to ensure you get one, the artwork is all you can go on.
Now, sure you can "refuse delivery" but that only hurts the local hobby shops.
Even if someone is just a "Lionel apologist", they should want Lionel to get things right - or at least match their artwork - so they will survive for the long term and be able to continue to make high-dollar scale, detailed, locomotives. It costs next to nothing to get matching/correct colors - or at least not fluorescent shades that are awful looking.
I forgot all about the Lionel apologists!….they sure like to see crap through rose colored glasses! ……BUT, the only way you can view this poor Berkshire, is in the pitch black dark, ….even then you’d be able to spot it! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
|
|
|
Post by madockawando on Nov 4, 2024 16:39:20 GMT
But we all do have a dog in this fight. Lionel is a "pre-order" company now and if you want to order something to ensure you get one, the artwork is all you can go on.
Now, sure you can "refuse delivery" but that only hurts the local hobby shops.
Even if someone is just a "Lionel apologist", they should want Lionel to get things right - or at least match their artwork - so they will survive for the long term and be able to continue to make high-dollar scale, detailed, locomotives. It costs next to nothing to get matching/correct colors - or at least not fluorescent shades that are awful looking.
I forgot all about the Lionel apologists!….they sure like to see crap through rose colored glasses! ……BUT, the only way you can view this poor Berkshire, is in the pitch black dark, ….even then you’d be able to spot it! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Lionel apologist? It’s about being fair. Missing screws? Yes it is Lionel problem. Delivering a locomotive in the color the pre-order art work said it would be? It’s on you. If you don’t like the color, then send it back but don’t blame me the dealer or Lionel.
|
|
|
Post by elblumbo on Nov 4, 2024 16:59:31 GMT
There's a reason that the most colorful, unprototypical locomotive schemes sell the best. Lionel apologists outnumber the very, very serious rivet counters who honestly believe there was one correct color that can be identified 70 years after the last one was scrapped. The reality is that photographic evidence can be found for many different shades of whatever color one likes to see. Between variations in original paint, repainting and repairing, and weathering, many locomotives actually did appear quite different at various points in their existence. I realize these points will not land well with those with great in depth knowledge and deep convictions, but they have some merit. And calling people derogatory names doesn't change any of it. The sad truth (to the very, extremely serious rivet counters) is that there is a large community of hobbyists who consider three rail trains to be toys, not scale models. Lionel sells to these folks too. Perhaps more numerous than said rivet counters. And in general, absolute prototypical accuracy isn't a priority, so no we don't care very much about these issues. Sorry...not sorry. If you don't like the color, you can sell it, return it or have it repainted or weathered as options. Not ordering until you see it makes sense too, although with constrained supply, it may be harder to find or more expensive than pre-ordering. Not one of life's greater tragedies, obviously. And we will have to agree to disagree about the degree of moral degeneracy present in Lionel and their despised apologists . There's always HO, where prototypical accuracy is a priority for manufacturers, dealers and hobbyists. Now I have to go check on my Phantom and Girl's Set.
|
|
mopac
Full Member
Posts: 135
|
Post by mopac on Nov 4, 2024 17:09:16 GMT
I don't know if it has ever been said which B&A berkshire number was the one that the boiler was painted Brewester green. I spent a lot of time looking for pictures of B&A a-1 berkshires. Saw many pictures but they are all in Black & White. Did find this interesting one B&A 1408 in B&W that shows distinct color difference on the boiler even in B&W. Even if the boiler had been painted in a darker green the boiler would look all black in a B&W photo They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. With that obnoxious feed-water heater and all the additional plumbing it looks atrocious to me. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by david1 on Nov 4, 2024 17:23:57 GMT
I have said this for years about the quality control and after 2017 I have refused to buy when BTO was the only option. I don't accept shoddy workmanship when I'm paying top dollar. There is no excuse for the issues Lionel has had.
The top reason it keeps continuing is the buyers willingness to accept the shoddy quality control. Why fix the issues if the customers keep accepting it. It will only improve if the customers demand it.
Sorry guys but the the buyers are the problem!!!
Dave
|
|
|
Post by bobthetrainguy on Nov 4, 2024 17:39:30 GMT
I forgot all about the Lionel apologists!….they sure like to see crap through rose colored glasses! ……BUT, the only way you can view this poor Berkshire, is in the pitch black dark, ….even then you’d be able to spot it! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Lionel apologist? It’s about being fair. Missing screws? Yes it is Lionel problem. Delivering a locomotive in the color the pre-order art work said it would be? It’s on you. If you don’t like the color, then send it back but don’t blame me the dealer or Lionel. But it doesn't look like the color in the pre-order artwork.
|
|
|
Post by Craignor on Nov 4, 2024 17:41:00 GMT
|
|
|
Post by rockymountaineer on Nov 4, 2024 17:42:18 GMT
... And we will have to agree to disagree about the degree of moral degeneracy present in Lionel and their despised apologists . Let's not forget about the YUELTIDE coach debacle in the premium Sleigh Bell Limited passenger set. Lionel let that misspelling quietly die on the vine. There official response was, "That's the way it was originally catalog'd". That spoke VOLUMES to me.
BTW, I'll have my correctly spelled YULETIDE badges at the upcoming Allentown ATMA Train Show on Nov 9th/10th at $15/pair for anyone interested. s
|
|
|
Post by bobthetrainguy on Nov 4, 2024 17:48:10 GMT
There's a reason that the most colorful, unprototypical locomotive schemes sell the best. Lionel apologists outnumber the very, very serious rivet counters who honestly believe there was one correct color that can be identified 70 years after the last one was scrapped. The reality is that photographic evidence can be found for many different shades of whatever color one likes to see. Between variations in original paint, repainting and repairing, and weathering, many locomotives actually did appear quite different at various points in their existence.
Who says the non prototypical colors sell the best? I think Lionel probably sold FAR more black locomotives in the post-war period that matched their real-life counterparts for the vast majority.
As to whether a correct color can be identified 70+ years after the fact, there are these things called books.
Many of the RR companies, and their employees kept exacting records of their work. While the "green" B&A Berk may not have the detailed paperwork that other railroad colors/liveries have, it's pretty easy to point out a color that not only does not match the pre-order artwork it would have been LAUGHABLE for it to exist on a locomotive painted in the 1930s.
The Lionel "collectors" and apologists alike will buy whatever "Lying L" sells. It doesn't matter if it's Black, Pink, Lime Green, or 49er Plaid... So why not get it "right" and make everyone happy? It's an easy thing to do.
|
|
|
Post by harmonyards on Nov 4, 2024 17:51:53 GMT
Lionel apologist? It’s about being fair. Missing screws? Yes it is Lionel problem. Delivering a locomotive in the color the pre-order art work said it would be? It’s on you. If you don’t like the color, then send it back but don’t blame me the dealer or Lionel. But it doesn't look like the color in the pre-order artwork.
Madockawando feels in his eyes it’s correct to the artwork. Even though the majority of folks can see it’s a few galaxies off,….🫣
|
|
|
Post by bobthetrainguy on Nov 4, 2024 17:54:07 GMT
... And we will have to agree to disagree about the degree of moral degeneracy present in Lionel and their despised apologists . Let's not forget about the YUELTIDE coach debacle in the premium Sleigh Bell Limited passenger set. Lionel let that misspelling quietly die on the vine. There official response was, "That's the way it was originally catalog'd". That spoke VOLUMES to me.
BTW, I'll have my correctly spelled YULETIDE badges at the upcoming Allentown ATMA Train Show on Nov 9th/10th at $15/pair for anyone interested. s
Or "MISSIOURI" Or "MISOURI" PACIFIC
|
|