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Post by madockawando on Aug 13, 2024 14:42:38 GMT
One benefit of LCCA membership is the ability to review digital Lionel catalogs from as far back as 1996.
I did some comparisons:
Lionel Dash 9 GE from the 1996 catalog: $699 Adjusted for 2024 dollars, that $699 locomotive would be $1339!!
Lionel Maine Northern LEGACY SD70M-2 #4605 from the volume 2 catalog: $699
Lionel ES44s: $749.99 (Only $50 more) after almost 30 years
Norfolk and Western Warhorse J set ( Not scale set!) $1295 in 1996!!!I Adjusted for inflation, the Norfolk and Western set would cost $2,593 in 2024 money.
New Haven full scale steam freight set: $1999. $700 increase, but it has been almost 30 years and the New Haven set is a much better set with more detail and technology.
But it has been almost 30 years and in some cases, Lionel's prices have not risen from inflation AND the 2024 product is much better with higher detail and technology... and the same price.
Just maybe, the hand wringing on Lionel prices is a bit overblown when inflation is taken into account?? When you take inflation into account, Lionel's prices for some of its products are less than what they should be!
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Post by madockawando on Aug 13, 2024 14:49:09 GMT
Here is another one from 1996: Full scale, diecast frame 16 wheel depressed center flatcar in 1996 it was $182. In 2024 dollars it would be $364
The full scale diecast large diecast flat cars in the 2024 volume 2 catalog: $169 !!!
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Post by harborbelt70 on Aug 13, 2024 16:05:24 GMT
I see your point and have said much the same thing myself in relation to some Lionel engines I particularly like. Certain classics like the TMCC Veranda turbine were priced into four figures when they came out many years ago and when more recently "recycled" were certainly not above RPI inflation. But the main tooling costs had already been absorbed (or so I think). The same goes for Lionel's AC-12 cab forward, which I still rate as some of the best tooling they have ever had.
However, more to the point as far as I am concerned is that Lionel build/assembly quality and indeed some innovation has gone seriously downhill, and when I think of value for money that looms large and basically keeps me out of the market.
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Post by david1 on Aug 13, 2024 17:24:36 GMT
I Agree but inflation is not everything. The first run of anything your paying for the design, tooling cost,engineering and many other things but when you keep using the Same tooling over and over and keep raising the sale prices time and time again.
I know things are expensive and since I have retired my disposable income has gone way down.I'm paying more for everything just to survive.
My first locomotive in 1970 I ever bought was a Lionel MPC U36B, I paid $37.50 for it, in today's money it would be $305.00. I enjoyed the heck out of that Locomotive.
As far as today's trains go I just dont think the quality, value and cost are worth my investment of my money. If I were in my prime earning years I may say to myself, I can afford some of these. But my priorities are different now and I have more things I have to spend on, like medical, housing, prescriptions, food.
So I play with the trains I have and still having fun!!
Dave
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Post by runamuckchuck on Aug 13, 2024 17:41:26 GMT
This balance between cost and actual or perceived value/worth is a recurring theme for a lot of consumer goods historically and currently. The usual comparison of value/worth is to compare the historic price adjusted for inflation with todays prices. However this is where it get's complicated if the individual or individuals believes that the historic item provided better build quality or serviceable life. Using cost comparison as the prime criteria for evaluating value/worth is not going to satisfy those folks. On the other hand the importers will say, you are comparing oranges and walnuts. It is the same model engine, however there is new tooling, added realism with hand applied parts and functions features such as whistle steam, crew talk and don't forget legacy and Bluetooth etc. And to be fair they are correct. Whether all those improvements are worth the money for someone to upgrade to the current model or take their first leap is wholly dependent upon the subjective perceptions of the buyer and their financial condition. It is this subjective aspect of a buying decision which IMO makes a cost comparison adjusted for inflation as the empirical evidence of value/worth an incomplete analysis; but it is a start in the discussion. Thanks to madockawando for his scholarly research and a not so subtle plug to become an LCCA member  . |
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Post by Traindiesel! on Aug 13, 2024 22:41:53 GMT
Well, I didn’t pay those prices back then either!!
(Hmm, but maybe I spent three times as much on several other trains. And I just had to have a couple of those die cast Kansas City Southern ES44’s!)
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Post by Craignor on Aug 13, 2024 23:18:45 GMT
I remember Lionel was way OVER PRICED back then. And that opened the doors for MTH to come in and eat Lionel’s lunch with much cheaper trains made overseas, with more features. And that paved the way for Lionel to move production from the USA to China, in 2001, where labor was cheaper, so Lionel could lower prices to compete with MTH.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Aug 14, 2024 0:19:52 GMT
I remember Lionel was way OVER PRICED back then. And that opened the doors for MTH to come in and eat Lionel’s lunch with much cheaper trains made overseas, with more features. And that paved the way for Lionel to move production from the USA to China, in 2001, where labor was cheaper, so Lionel could lower prices to compete with MTH. Agreed as far as you went however it was not just MTH features in the software sense, it was more accurate paint schemes, and detailed tooling that set MTH apart IMO. Then there is the aspect of consistency which plays into what quality means which is often overlooked. At one time long ago it may surprise many that McDonalds, yes that McDonalds was rated among the highest quality restaurants in the country for all restaurants not just fast food. Why, because of consistency. The meal you got in Chicago was prepared and tasted the same as the identical meal you got in Philadelphia, New York, or Escanaba Mi. Expectations play a large part in the perception of quality. At a local restaurant every order of the same entree is an adventure. I never know what I am going to get, let alone if I will enjoy the most recent version. It's convenient OK? And the food tastes good just not prepared the same way as last week. But isn't this lack of consistency a common criticism of Lionel these days? It looks good in the catalog but you are never quite sure what you will actually get. IMO MTH beat Lionel on a number of metrics but perhaps none more important than their consistent meeting or exceeding the expectations of their customers. At least historically.
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Post by madockawando on Aug 14, 2024 0:40:07 GMT
The Products you listed were not even available back then. There were no es44's in 96.TMCC WAS just out in 1995 and not all Products had it. Legacy was not Available till 2007,+ dash 9's were not $699 in 1996 they were $359.00 at most!! I'm sorry to say your entire post is wrong, get your facts correct if you want to Tell us how wrong we are. Dave What?? I listed specific products from specific catalogues. There is nothing wrong or incorrect about my post and my assessment. So, I am not sure what you are talking about . |
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Post by Country Joe on Aug 14, 2024 1:02:15 GMT
The Products you listed were not even available back then. There were no es44's in 96.TMCC WAS just out in 1995 and not all Products had it. Legacy was not Available till 2007,+ dash 9's were not $699 in 1996 they were $359.00 at most!! I'm sorry to say your entire post is wrong, get your facts correct if you want to Tell us how wrong we are. Dave
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Post by runamuckchuck on Aug 14, 2024 1:16:36 GMT
You constantly read about some bystander who intervenes in a disagreement and they end up being the one who get's shot not the two combatants. With that grim perspective, here goes nothing.
In my reading of the OP, the assertion was that the premise that Lionel's 'high' pricing may be 'overblown' when taking into account past pricing adjusted for inflation.
I did not interpret that as saying anybody was wrong if they were of the opinion that Lionel's pricing is high in the absolute.
As for the accuracy of the catalog information that mackawando quoted from that should easily be verified. After all he did not print or reproduce the catalogs.
The issue of price is particularly vexing when it prevents us from buying what we would like to own, or are interested in owning.
Unlike David 1 I am not yet retired, however I am approaching that stage in my life (hopefully) where I know I will be cutting way back on discretionary spending. Buying trains, records, or hi fi/stereo components with our retirement savings seems ill-advised at best.
Even now as an example if I preordered every GG-1, AEC, and Halloween O scale item in Catalog 2 which is my desire, cost wise I should be committed. But I would be happy in my rubber room as long as I had adequate power supply.
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Post by david1 on Aug 14, 2024 2:25:36 GMT
Thanks Joe, the way I read it and still reading it is confusing. You have to be more concise when trying to convince others.
But after reading it more closely I do agree I was wrong and I apologize for my mistake and will delete that post.
Lets forget about this issue and continue on making trains the best we can make it for ourselves and others.you will never convince me and I will never convince you.
Lets go play trains.
Dave
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Post by madockawando on Aug 14, 2024 10:05:39 GMT
Thanks Joe, the way I read it and still reading it is confusing. You have to be more concise when trying to convince others. But after reading it more closely I do agree I was wrong and I apologize for my mistake and will delete that post. Lets forget about this issue and continue on making trains the best we can make it for ourselves and others.you will never convince me and I will never convince you. Lets go play trains. Dave Sorry for the confusion!
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Post by madockawando on Aug 14, 2024 10:25:31 GMT
Here is the link to the LCCA's digital archive, which includes Lionel catalogs going back to the prewar era as well as old Model Builder magazines. That is where I pulled the old pricing from. lionelcollectors.org/members/digitalpubs.aspxIMPORTANT: You must be logged in as an LCCA member to access the old digital catalogs!!!Here is another find. In Lionel's 2000 catalog, the SD70 made their first appearance. Compared to todays SD70ace and SD70M-2 models in Lionel's 2024 catalog, the 2000 Lionel catalog model SDs look a bit more toy like. But there they are, with Railsounds and TMCC. The price in the 2000 Lionel catalog is: $499. Taking inflation into account, Lionel's SD70 from 2000 cost $910 in 2024 dollars. So taking inflation into account: Lionel's SD70 from the 2000 catalog costs $910 while Lionel's SD70 models in to the 2024 catalog cost $699. It is another example of how Lionel's current prices have not kept up with inflation. In fact, Lionel has decreased prices... |
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Post by josef on Aug 14, 2024 10:39:02 GMT
Cost increases due to inflation? That maybe true in many senses and items. But in the 50s a brand new Motorola Black and White TV made in the USA cost my dad 425.77. Today I can buy a Flat Screen, color, 65", 4k smart TV with a lot more electronics in it then a model train engine for as low as 447.99 (I just looked it up at several places).
Somehow, we seem to justify our output by using inflation as a salvation to still pay the high prices.
Besides TVs, I can name a number of things I have bought and replaced that are lower, or even in prices I paid 20/25 years ago.
Years ago 2005 when I replaced 2 tires on my 1998 Ranger, they were higher then what the same replacements cost me this past February.
But if one gets enjoyment of looking at a 2000.00 item displayed on a shelf or running on a layout, more power to you.
One thing also: Suggested retail price. This is the price one would pay if buying from a manufacturer. But then retailers also price items lower, as much as 50 to 150.00 yet they still make a profit in selling and if they purchase extra items take into account storage and making money to justify purchasing extras items. If a retailer only makes 50 to 100 then after a sale, he's losing money having to pay overhead, wages, social security, website, etc. So there must also be a tremendous profit for the retailer to carry the product and justify buying extras of BTO items. Anyone one familar with mark-up?
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