oace
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Posts: 241
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Post by oace on May 14, 2024 21:03:09 GMT
I hear your pain. Ebay has some real garbage too. you almost have to join a club and speak to individuals who are willing to sell some nice pieces at a good price. Even the clubs are rare here JDaddy , and those I found were HO gauge... The O gauge culture is way less important in France, and when there is, it is for reality accurate, costy high precision models, for display most of the time, which offer no interest to me. For them : "Lionel ? MTH ? What's that ?"  There's only one forum in France - after my searches - which is O gauge Tinplate related among HO scale, so I subscribed there. With the recommendations of the moderator, I contacted the (reputedly) local section of the association since nearly two weeks, but unfortunately received no reply for the moment...  forum-cfe.forumactif.org/forumOACE
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Post by healey36 on May 15, 2024 11:22:35 GMT
Found this Lionel 1681 in pieces at the annual train meet held at the Arbutus Volunteer Fire Company each Sunday-before-Christmas. The motor was shot, but with Don Carver's help, was able to find the parts necessary to bring it back from the brink:  Sold by Lionel at the very bottom of the Great Depression, I figured it deserved a return to running order. |
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oace
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Post by oace on May 15, 2024 15:26:09 GMT
@healey 36 : I primarily thought it was a Std Gauge model, but it is a nice O Gauge... Those big Std Gauge steam locomotives are also superb ! Your little 1681 probably looked like this, originally ? Or was it factory full-red body painted ?  In the meantime, I am still hesitating for acquiring a Lionel steam locomotive : a 2046 (with a 2046W whistling tender, as we discussed) or a 262E (to which I would add a prewar 1689W whistling tender) ?    By the way, between the models 2046 and 262E : which is the "biggest" in size ? OACE |
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Post by healey36 on May 15, 2024 15:48:45 GMT
The 1681 was only catalogued for two years (1934-1935), I think. It came with sets 1054 (1934) and 1062 (1935), both being Lionel Jr. (O-27) sets. The 1681 had no E-unit and no manual forward/reverse, so it ran forward only. The 1681E featured the standard four-position E-unit. There was also a 1661E that was catalogued in 1933, a 1661 version having been sold by the Ives line in 1931-1932. I've seen the 1661/1661E and the 1681/1681E in both solid red as well as the black and red. af3020 likely can fill in the story regarding the numerous variations.
Being a tinplate guy, I'd go for the 262 every day of the week, OACE. That, dragging a set of 600-series two-tone red coaches, looks really nice.
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oace
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Post by oace on May 15, 2024 18:29:04 GMT
The 1681 was only catalogued for two years (1934-1935), I think. It came with sets 1054 (1934) and 1062 (1935), both being Lionel Jr. (O-27) sets. The 1681 had no E-unit and no manual forward/reverse, so it ran forward only. The 1681E featured the standard four-position E-unit. There was also a 1661E that was catalogued in 1933, a 1661 version having been sold by the Ives line in 1931-1932. I've seen the 1661/1661E and the 1681/1681E in both solid red as well as the black and red. af3020 likely can fill in the story regarding the numerous variations. Being a tinplate guy, I'd go for the 262 every day of the week, OACE. That, dragging a set of 600-series two-tone red coaches, looks really nice. I see - thanks healey36 ! So af3020 is (one of) our archivist-historian : good to know that... The cars you speak about are probably like these : lionel prewar 600 series passenger cars  To go with my IVES by Williams #1694 electric engine, I bought those similar red ones below, also made by Williams, from the same Guy who sold me the #1694. On the picture, these have 2-wheels bogies, but those I have are fitted with three wheels bogies, plus lighting :  So yes : they would also match satisfactorily a 262 / 262E steam engine... A plus in favor of the Tinplate Prewar 262 / 262E, then !  OACE
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Post by af3020 on May 16, 2024 0:06:16 GMT
oace, yes, the cars healey36 is referring to are the 600 series. The 262 and 262E were made from 1931-1934 and came with a 262T tender. Lionel didn't offer whistles until 1935 so these engines never came with a whistle...of course that doesn't mean you can't pick up one of the later tenders like the 265W which did have a whistle and couple it up to your 262 and its consist. Here's a picture of the set from 1933  As for the 1681 engines, I've never had the chance to photograph a good example of those so I don't have anything to show you. Maybe someday I'll visit a collection with a good example and add that to the photo collection. The timeline for the 1661/1681 engine is 1661E - black with red frame and 4 wheel tender - 1933 - the version that came with the Lionel/Ives sets had the motor plate lettered LIONEL-IVES 1681 - hand reverse - black with red frame -1934 red with red frame 1935 1681E - electric reverse - black with ted frame 1934 red with red frame 1935 The length of the 262E engine/tender combination is 15-16 inches and the 2046 engine/tender is around 20 inches |
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Post by JDaddy on May 16, 2024 3:35:07 GMT
York had lots of Standard gauge at great prices... I found these cars for 20 dollars each... not the best shape but I am still cleaning them up.  |
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Post by JDaddy on May 16, 2024 3:44:11 GMT
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Post by JDaddy on May 16, 2024 3:57:31 GMT
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Post by healey36 on May 16, 2024 13:38:13 GMT
I found these engines too. the 392 had a chugger and the engine was 300 dollars. The whistle tender I found in the silver hall and the guy did not want to take it home so he said 200, I never opened my wallet that fast! I think only the very best examples of prewar trains are holding their value...the rest of the stuff, derisively referred to as "operator quality", is in relative freefall. I'm glad you're finding the pieces you've been looking for; I suspect the supply will only increase in coming years.
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oace
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Posts: 241
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Post by oace on May 16, 2024 16:34:33 GMT
US Standard Gauge is Total Science-Fiction here in France... Unfortunately !  The only large units I saw were those ugly-bulky-costy stuff from LGB !   Absolutely no picture / comparison with the superb Lionel Std. Gauge Steam Locomotives, as pictured by JDaddy ...  Sometimes, I regret not to have gone for Std. Gauge for my return to Model Trains... But what stopped me is the fact that it is IMHO only an USA thing, not or barely known in Europe, conversely to O Gauge, where you can find both Vintage and Reissue models by ACE, Bassett-Lowke, Hornby, Märklin, JEP, LR and the like... And of course items from Lionel and others ! Oh, and thanks af3020 for your historical tip about the 262/262E model !  OACE |
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Post by healey36 on May 17, 2024 14:09:42 GMT
Here's a shot of my grandfather's Flyer 1102 "Suburban" set (after undergoing a bit of refurbishment), along with a scan of the 1927 Flyer catalog:  Interestingly, the 1926 catalog pictures the "Suburban" including "Seattle" 1120 coaches, while the 1927 catalog shows a more generic scheme. However, the locomotive's trim definitely matches the 1927 illustration, not that of the 1926 catalog where the trim was a bit more elaborate. This thing had been stored in a damp basement for an unknown period of time, only to be found when the house was completely emptied a few years ago. There was quite a bit of corrosion damage, especially to the roofs of the coaches. We had to run those through the bead-blaster to get them cleaned up before a respray of satin black enamel. Other surface corrosion, especially on the lithography, was lightly sanded in an attempt to arrest the progression. The coach frames, well scratched and scraped, were polished only. The 1096, despite quite a bit of work, remains a project in-process. For now, it will not run when AC power is applied (it will run using DC). There are no modifications to the motor that would convert it to DC-only operation. Not sure what's going on. The factory maintenance instructions warn against getting any lubricant on the commutator, but that has been thoroughly cleaned and new brushes installed. So a bit of an enigma at the moment; however, if there's one loco on the roster we definitely want to get back into good operating condition, this is it. Stay tuned. |
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Post by af3020 on May 17, 2024 20:36:18 GMT
Healey36 rather than stay tuned I'll chime in with some additional information about your set. What you have is a "leftover" set. This is my designation for sets of this type. As far as I know there isn't an "official" title for sets like this. First, a little history. American Flyer was in the business of selling toy trains and they NEVER let any of their product go to waste. From time-to-time, usually during a production transition, they would find themselves with sets that couldn't be completed as advertised because some component or components plural had been discontinued. In these instances what they would do would be to take the leftovers and just add in whatever current production was closest to what was promised and ship the results. In your case it looks like they had a supply of Suburban sets which were complete as far as the set box, cars, track, etc. was concerned but not enough of the #1096 engine with the 1926 superstructure. So, given that 1927 was just up ahead on the temporal highway, they substituted the 1927 version of the engine and sent your set (along with others) with 1926 cars and a 1927 engine. Thus, you have an even more interesting Suburban set than you might have initially thought. Catalog cut - 1926  1926 #1096  1927 Catalog cut  1927 Suburban Set As you can see the "correct" Suburban set for 1927 did have the plainer looking #1120 cars.  Based on the catalog cut from 1928 it appears Flyer planned an upgrade of the Suburban set - instead of two coaches they were going to provide a coach and an observation. It is also clear from the illustration that they were going to make some significant changes to the #1096 and offer a new engine #1094. 1928 Catalog cut - Little American  The set below is what actually came in the 1928 Little American Set - as you can see the engine is the #1096 from the previous year. I've seen any number of boxed Little American sets over the years and they all look just like the set illustrated below. 1928 Little American Set  What is interesting is Flyer did make an engine which resembles the catalog illustration for 1928  The frame and cowcatcher are a close match for the catalog illustration as is the roof trim of bell and pantograph. I've found this engine in various states of preservation at train meets over the years but I've never seen it as part of a set. My GUESS is this was supposed to be the #1094. The fact that it has #1096 on the side doesn't mean much. Flyer routinely used the same litho treatment for various items - changing the product number in the catalog while leaving the litho treatment alone - the markings on the various train stations is a case in point. All of the lithographed freight stations just have No. 95 on the side even though the catalog changed the numeric designation over time. |
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Post by healey36 on May 17, 2024 21:17:29 GMT
Terrific info, af3020. I suspected this was a hybridized set made of components from two marketing/production runs. I'm glad to have it. Now, I need to find myself one of those "1120" observations cars to make things even more quirky, lol.
BTW, I like the look of those cast pantographs on the 1926 1096 locomotive.
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oace
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Posts: 241
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Post by oace on May 20, 2024 0:01:35 GMT
healey36 : I followed your advice... I finally choose a Lionel model 262 Tinplate Steam Locomotive :  It's not a super-premium item, but it is working, in good shape and presentable condition, in need of TLC and little missing parts, at the first glance. And it was affordable/duty/shipping - think there's few local "York" event here in France, and finding a 262 is pure Science-Fiction... Since I want the Lionel mighty-cool turbine whistle, I also took a cheap lot of two working 1689W tenders, knowing that - according to OGF Historian member af3020 - there's no matching whistle tender for this locomotive. By the way, af3020 : is the tender coming with this 262 locomotive the correct one ? I saw some which have bogies instead... For the moment, all that stuff is starting for a long transit, and will be possibly delivered at the end of June to come... OACE
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