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Post by MichRR714 on Oct 23, 2019 2:56:54 GMT
Seems to me the striping on the new J's is far too red. This comes on the heels of the wrong color applied to the PE RPO's and those are just the recent gaffes. I sold a Milwaukee NW2 because Lionel painted it Southern Pacific Daylight orange...
I think Howard needs to buy a Pantone book. ^
MTH just doesn't seem to have this much difficulty matching paint.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 3:12:38 GMT
Lionel is awful right now. Here's a picture of the just released Missouri Pacific FA and then a picture of the real thing.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 23, 2019 5:22:45 GMT
Charlie, oh no... not another color blunder... say it ain't so!!! So this is the NEW production batch of "J" locomotives cataloged in the 2019 Signature Catalog???
I had heard folks became a bit apprehensive of the upcoming J's color stripe, after the color of the recent RPO/baggage cars arrived being too red/pink in color. Now with the color of the locomotive's stripe askew, that's for sure gonna be disappointing to folks who had pre-ordered those J's. The only "J" model whose stripe "should" be red is the Freedom Train locomotive. And the catalog shows that to be the case. The other J's in the catalog seem to have the correct color illustrated. So what's going on with Lionel's factories these days???
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 23, 2019 5:54:33 GMT
Charlie, After reading your thread here, I did some rooting around online... and I'm drawing the same conclusion you are. And it's the accurate one: Lionel screwed up the color of the J stripe. And what's worse, is some of Lionel fanboys aren't even professional and objective enough to point out this glaring error in their early reviews. The guy who does those Notch 6 video's posted a brief Facebook clip, where he unboxed the J. You can tell right away he's trying to preserve the relationship he has with Lionel. But it's clear he's tripping over his words uncomfortably in terms of how to assess the color. In the end, he refers to the J's glaringly incorrect color as, "not bad -- just different". Duh..... ya think? Geez, as soon as he unwrapped it, I could see the stripe is FAR too red -- almost has a pink hue to it that in no way matches recent Lionel N&W passenger cars that came out as part of the Powhatan Arrow and Pocahontas passenger trains. It almost reminds me of the same issue Norfolk Southern fans are going through trying to match the "too red" camera "theatre" observation car that came out earlier this year (or was it last year?) with more traditional maroon NS business train colors already in the market. And if I recall correctly, I even think Lionel's new NS business train cars due out soon are reportedly supposed to be the preferred darker maroon color -- which of course won't match their own theatre/observation car. But who knows what will actually be delivered from China. Seems that even on the best of days, it's a crap shoot. I also read online elsewhere that somebody commented Lionel is going to make this right by providing corrected shells. But honestly... even if that's true, I can't help but imagine the inflated prices Lionel is now charging for these items is, in effect, factoring in all these production "re-reruns" that the company is undertaking to get things right, when these issues should never have happened in the first place. Aside from that... I really don't know what to say anymore. I talked with Ryan at York last week, and he and a few others tasked with manning the Lionel booth seem like genuinely nice folks. But they seem to be at the mercy of a China connection that isn't all that reliable these days on a variety of fronts. As I've often said about this issue, it's a clear case where the tail is wagging the dog. And that's all I'm gonna say about it here.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 10:14:33 GMT
David
You are correct. I too spoke with Ryan about the J, the Polar RPO car, and some upcoming Polar releases. He acknowledged that Lionel has had its share of paint issues lately and they are working to put procedures in place to help prevent that. He also assured me that the Polar RPO and J will be made right. I truly appreciate that but you are right about the costs of these errors. I'm not sure who pays for that but I have to believe at least part of that gets pushed onto the consumer unless the factory takes responsibility.
Ryan did assure me he has seen the production sample of the Polar BiPolar and passenger cars and they were correct, which I also have on pre-order. He also told me to take my Polar RPO car home and run the wheels off of it. Lionel will make it correct at no cost to me. I appreciate that.
I think we all are Lionel fans. We want to see them improve. Hopefully if they do get a procedure in place we'll see the last of these issues. I certainly would rather discuss these issues with them and even on the boards in a civil manner and get some good information to them.
I saw you speaking with Ryan at the booth. He is genuinely a good guy. I do think he is certainly at the mercy of the plants overseas but if that's the case they need to get some handles on that. I feel they will and hopefully the J stripe, and expensive repaint I'm sure, will get that done.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 10:56:45 GMT
Lionel is using seven different factories, many in different locations. Imagine the logistics involved.
I remember a video that a Mike did and they have dealt with the same factory owner for years. Not sure if they use more or not.
Ryan is trying very hard to get things straight.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Oct 23, 2019 11:05:12 GMT
I have not been affected by these recent issues because anything new that’s arrived on my doorstep for some while has been black or ghost grey. However I came across some comments on QC in Chinese factories by Scott Mann dating from 3+ years back and they make sobering reading, as in it’s a struggle, and has not gotten any easier lately. I won’t repost them, valuable as they are, because the position is as it is.
Suffice it to say that I feel inhibited from ordering anything from Lionel that is not in very standard livery - UP yellow and grey for example - and that it is difficult to get wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 11:17:14 GMT
Eric of Eric's trains on Youtube does the same thing about Lionel's gaffs. Glosses over everything Lionel has done of late in his reviews. Doing a real disservice to his youtube followers. Next time he glosses over something in his next Lionel review, I'll leave a polite but stern comment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 11:32:47 GMT
Eric of Eric's trains on Youtube does the same thing about Lionel's gaffs. Glosses over everything Lionel has done of late in his reviews. Doing a real disservice to his youtube followers. Next time he glosses over something in his next Lionel review, I'll leave a polite but stern comment. Let's face it. These guys have a good relationship with Lionel. So do I for that matter doing the Legacy meeting. There is nothing wrong with discussing the errors and issues but you certainly have to temper your comments and keep them very civil. It's a fine line to walk when your some of your revenue depends on the manufacturers to supply you with samples, insider information, and even help at a Legacy meeting. I feel I can certainly comment objectively but do tend to keep my angst in check and do a lot of wait and see how this is handled. I am also friends with the folks that are often the brunt of the frustration and know for a fact they hate it when there is something wrong as much as we do.
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Post by laz57 on Oct 23, 2019 11:35:49 GMT
Lionel has screwed up bunches of colors on their product. R&N 425 along with the passenger set, comes to mind, that was done wrong along its many others. That along with sloppy QC is why people are really getting frustrated with Lionel. At least with their Lion line that is being made here in the USA, they can keep an eye on their product. Maybe time to pull up stakes overseas? Oh no they’ll loose too much money with the cheap labor that is being employed? They still have a great product but are loosing lots of customer’s because of their shortsightedness.
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Post by pebo on Oct 23, 2019 12:42:56 GMT
Yes Peter
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Post by Joe Saggese on Oct 23, 2019 12:53:57 GMT
I'm lucky I like PRR colors and black. I hope there's a fix for anyone affected.
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Post by ptc on Oct 23, 2019 13:21:45 GMT
I respect the fact that Ryan is willing to raise his hand and say we screwed up with respect to what has become many production problems. This has to have had an impact on their bottom line in terms of the costs to correct these problems and lost business due to customer apprehensions. But at some point, just raising your hand and admitting the production problems is just not enough. It would appear that whoever at Lionel allowed these issues to continue needs to go, from the top down. It has hurt their reputaion big time, even though publically they do not acknowledge it.
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Post by fabforrest on Oct 23, 2019 13:43:59 GMT
“ Suffice it to say that I feel inhibited from ordering anything from Lionel that is not in very standard livery - UP yellow and grey for example - and that it is difficult to get wrong.”
Well, they got the yellow wrong on the recent E6 AA units.
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Post by thebigcrabcake on Oct 23, 2019 14:22:13 GMT
Polar Express Blue is a very difficult color to match. The exact color should be called Lionel Polar Express Blue because that's what we use as the standard. There is no prototype. Lionel Polar Railroad Blue is a different shade and so is MTH North Pole Railroad's attempted knock-off Lionel PE color. I've tried mixing the color many time before settling for a close match to the Polar Railroad Blue. It only takes a few drops too many of one of the components and the whole batch is way off.
My point is that it all comes down to whomever is mixing the paint. How much could it take for an entire run? 10 gallons? 20 gallons? Somewhere, there is a guy mixing paint. It isn't necessary to have Quality Control Agents in 7 different factories to get the paint right. Just QC the paint before it ever leaves the Paint Guy. It's that easy and it's that important.
Why? Because correct paint is what we are buying. The underlying passenger car has been produced from the same mold forever. We buy paint variation. That's what sells. It doesn't require new tooling or massive product R&D. It's the cheapest way to put a new product on the market.
In the absence of new tooling or new electronics, Lionel is in the business of selling paint schemes. It's as important as any other part of their business.
The lack of QC on the Paint Man is a significant management error. I have to think they are aware of that. It happens in every business. Even a good company like Lionel. I would tend to believe that they are taking it seriously.
Emile
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