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Post by madockawando on Jul 31, 2024 23:44:28 GMT
The $4,800 train set in this catalog does not exist. The only reason its not advertised as a set is because the box would be too big and too heavy. Stop kissing the ring!!!! Dave Baloney, Lionel has sold even bigger sets in their own set box. In this catalog Lionel is selling a gigantic PA Vision GG-1 freight set MSRP of $2,599 that comes in its own giant set box. There is also a N&W King coal freight set with a full scale steam engine and 13 full scale freight cars. It all comes in it own giant freight box that has an MSRP of $2,999. It also comes in it own giant train set box. Stop hallucinating phantom train sets with phantom prices that don't exist in this catalog!
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Post by bobthetrainguy on Aug 1, 2024 1:47:04 GMT
How does a BTO item "sell out"? Lionel will make as many as are ordered, plus spares for parts and the inevitable DOAs that come off the container. The $4,800 train set in this catalog does not exist. You didn't answer my question. You assert that Lionel is "correct" on their prices because they always sell out of big ticket items. In reality, we have no idea if their pricing is any good because everything is BTO. They know how many to make because they were ordered. However, sometimes things still get cancelled. This tells me that the price was wrong. Further, there are nearly always a few leftovers to be had when something does get made, once the dust settles. If it were in fact the case that there were no leftovers it would mean Lionel is leaving money on the table. My point is that it's hard to determine what the perfect pricing would be for these items for many reasons, but your arguments definitely do not make the case that Lionel has found the perfect pricing. |
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Post by bobthetrainguy on Aug 1, 2024 1:51:06 GMT
... How does a BTO item "sell out"? Lionel will make as many as are ordered, plus spares for parts and the inevitable DOAs that come off the container. "SOLD OUT" is always a relative term. The reference in this thread was regarding John Brady's custom-run Big Boy selling out shortly after it was delivered. Lionel has minimum production quantities -- currently 40 units for locomotives. I think Brady ordered 85. Most of those were based on pre-order commitments, but a few were ordered "on spec".
Mr. Muffin's Trains runs a ton of custom-runs... and quite often, he'll move forward with a given offering if he can get 20 firm customer orders. The remaining 20 are ordered "on spec" with hopes he'll sell them all eventually. Hence the term "sold out" at the dealer level makes sense applied to custom-runs. OTOH, "sold out" is somewhat a foregone conclusion to Lionel for BTO items, since they produce what dealers order.
Fair. But madockwando was trying to use the fact that, Lionel sells everything it makes, to say that their pricing is correct. I see no way to make that mental leap. |
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Post by madockawando on Aug 1, 2024 11:00:14 GMT
"SOLD OUT" is always a relative term. The reference in this thread was regarding John Brady's custom-run Big Boy selling out shortly after it was delivered. Lionel has minimum production quantities -- currently 40 units for locomotives. I think Brady ordered 85. Most of those were based on pre-order commitments, but a few were ordered "on spec".
Mr. Muffin's Trains runs a ton of custom-runs... and quite often, he'll move forward with a given offering if he can get 20 firm customer orders. The remaining 20 are ordered "on spec" with hopes he'll sell them all eventually. Hence the term "sold out" at the dealer level makes sense applied to custom-runs. OTOH, "sold out" is somewhat a foregone conclusion to Lionel for BTO items, since they produce what dealers order.
Fair. But madockwando was trying to use the fact that, Lionel sells everything it makes, to say that their pricing is correct. I see no way to make that mental leap. How can you imply that their pricing is not correct? They sell out their BTO items. Dealers will often order a few extra but these sell out as well. Lionel's prices are comparable to MTH and Atlas for similar products. Why are you so focused on Lionel only? And why do you feel entitled to have Lionel sell you cheap trains at below their cost?
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Post by madockawando on Aug 1, 2024 11:01:54 GMT
The $4,800 train set in this catalog does not exist. You didn't answer my question. You assert that Lionel is "correct" on their prices because they always sell out of big ticket items. In reality, we have no idea if their pricing is any good because everything is BTO. They know how many to make because they were ordered. However, sometimes things still get cancelled. This tells me that the price was wrong. Further, there are nearly always a few leftovers to be had when something does get made, once the dust settles. If it were in fact the case that there were no leftovers it would mean Lionel is leaving money on the table. My point is that it's hard to determine what the perfect pricing would be for these items for many reasons, but your arguments definitely do not make the case that Lionel has found the perfect pricing. My point is that people are trying to create train sets that don't exist in the catalog in order to make some bogus points about pricing.
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Post by JDaddy on Aug 1, 2024 14:39:18 GMT
You didn't answer my question. You assert that Lionel is "correct" on their prices because they always sell out of big ticket items. In reality, we have no idea if their pricing is any good because everything is BTO. They know how many to make because they were ordered. However, sometimes things still get cancelled. This tells me that the price was wrong. Further, there are nearly always a few leftovers to be had when something does get made, once the dust settles. If it were in fact the case that there were no leftovers it would mean Lionel is leaving money on the table. My point is that it's hard to determine what the perfect pricing would be for these items for many reasons, but your arguments definitely do not make the case that Lionel has found the perfect pricing. My point is that people are trying to create train sets that don't exist in the catalog in order to make some bogus points about pricing.
As far as what a set is defined as... if it has the same color and road name then its apart of the set according to collectors. Have to have each and everyone these is always the talk. Otherwise, if you miss one add on 2-pack, that one will sure be the one that is impossible to find or is triple the cost on Ebay. "Oh its the rare one". " "Oh I see your missing the rare car..."
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Post by madockawando on Aug 1, 2024 15:41:23 GMT
My point is that people are trying to create train sets that don't exist in the catalog in order to make some bogus points about pricing.
As far as what a set is defined as... if it has the same color and road name then its apart of the set according to collectors. Have to have each and everyone these is always the talk. Otherwise, if you miss one add on 2-pack, that one will sure be the one that is impossible to find or is triple the cost on Ebay. "Oh its the rare one". " "Oh I see your missing the rare car..." What a collector thinks is a set is all about his fantasy and imagination , not what is in the catalog. A train set comes in a set box. I could create all kinds of imaginative train sets in this catalog and the last couple catalogues. Creating imaginary train sets just to get in some pointless dig against Lionel is silly. |
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Post by madockawando on Aug 1, 2024 16:13:21 GMT
With apologies to all those who posted on this thread IMO we are chasing our tails or on a Merry go Round. If we go back to the OP the question is simple if you make some inferences. While praising engine and cars the OP opined as follows more or less; 1. The 'set' is the GG-1 and every car that may be produced for purchase that goes with that engine. 2. The OP stated that the suggested retail cost for the full monty aka 'set' was beyond his ability or willingness to pay that price. 3. The OP wondered how many folks would be ups to buying the full monty aka 'set'. There was no complaint about the appropriateness of the price. No rant about Lionel. Just a simple observation and a question. This is a lot of money to spend. I wonder how many Lionel will sell? At this point I have to ask how does this simple question end up with 5 pages of posts and why am I still contributing to the prolonging chasing the tail which I do not have? I need to get a life or another job!  The OP could have described it as : This GG-1 and matching ad on cars cost $$$ pre-order price from your favorite dealer. Instead he created a train set that doesn’t exist. And then complains about a full retail price THAT NO ONE PAYS just so he can complain “ah shucks, look at that nice set, but you know Lionel and their prices..” Let see the OP add up the early bird price is for this “set” and if he thinks it’s still too high then let’s hear him say what a realistic price should be. |
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Post by runamuckchuck on Aug 1, 2024 16:23:20 GMT
BTO just sets the minimum production run. Makes things easier financially. Extras are made for repair parts. Dealers will order a few extra sets if they think they will be popular. Price point covers a long list items; development, shipping, production, tooling investments. In order to balance the books the risks has to be worth the effort.
As far as what a set is defined as... if it has the same color and road name then its apart of the set according to collectors. Have to have each and everyone these is always the talk. Otherwise, if you miss one add on 2-pack, that one will sure be the one that is impossible to find or is triple the cost on Ebay. "Oh its the rare one". " "Oh I see your missing the rare car..." A train set comes in a set box. I could create all kinds of imaginative train sets in this catalog and the last couple catalogues. Creating imaginary train sets just to get in some pointless dig against Lionel is silly. Historically I would agree that a set was what was in a set box. The Asa Packer, and New Hope Ivyland sets would be a good recent examples of one and done no add ons in a single box. However in the day of Ala carte buying where a person can pick and choose from the start and there is no set box IMO the traditional definition of set can no longer be applied across the board. A set in those instances is what you make of it. Unlike you, I see no pointless dig against Lionel in the OP. To summarize the OP; 1. Nice train 2. A lot of money I cannot or will not spend (if you buy the whole thing). 3. I wonder how many Lionel will sell. My reaction to this particular item is a follows; 1. Nice train 2. If you bought the whole train that is a lot of blue, a really long consist, and a lot of money 3. Too much blue for me. Whew, safe. 4. I wonder how many Lionel will sell?
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Post by runamuckchuck on Aug 1, 2024 16:32:40 GMT
With apologies to all those who posted on this thread IMO we are chasing our tails or on a Merry go Round. If we go back to the OP the question is simple if you make some inferences. While praising engine and cars the OP opined as follows more or less; 1. The 'set' is the GG-1 and every car that may be produced for purchase that goes with that engine. 2. The OP stated that the suggested retail cost for the full monty aka 'set' was beyond his ability or willingness to pay that price. 3. The OP wondered how many folks would be ups to buying the full monty aka 'set'. There was no complaint about the appropriateness of the price. No rant about Lionel. Just a simple observation and a question. This is a lot of money to spend. I wonder how many Lionel will sell? At this point I have to ask how does this simple question end up with 5 pages of posts and why am I still contributing to the prolonging chasing the tail which I do not have? I need to get a life or another job! The OP could have described it as : This GG-1 and matching ad on cars cost $$$ pre-order price from your favorite dealer. Instead he created a train set that doesn’t exist. And then complains about a full retail price THAT NO ONE PAYS just so he can complain “ah shucks, look at that nice set, but you know Lionel and their prices..” Let see the OP add up the early bird price is for this “set” and if he thinks it’s still too high then let’s hear him say what a realistic price should be. There must be something in this I am missing. If someone cannot or will not pay a price MSRP or discounted what is the complaint? If there is one it seems self directed as in Gee I wish I made or saved more money so I could buy this set. Nowhere did he state that the price was unrealistic , usury, or otherwise absurd. It was simply more than he was able or willing to pay. Is there a chance that you may be reading too much into the OP? I am just asking.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Aug 1, 2024 16:36:14 GMT
For those of you who may be a bit confused with the friendly back and forth between madockawando and me, I deleted the post he is quoting because I thought better of it but not before madockawando saw it.
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Post by JDaddy on Aug 1, 2024 19:18:51 GMT
BTO just sets the minimum production run. Makes things easier financially. Extras are made for repair parts. Dealers will order a few extra sets if they think they will be popular. Price point covers a long list items; development, shipping, production, tooling investments. In order to balance the books the risks has to be worth the effort.
As far as what a set is defined as... if it has the same color and road name then its apart of the set according to collectors. Have to have each and everyone these is always the talk. Otherwise, if you miss one add on 2-pack, that one will sure be the one that is impossible to find or is triple the cost on Ebay. "Oh its the rare one". " "Oh I see your missing the rare car..." What a collector thinks is a set is all about his fantasy and imagination , not what is in the catalog. A train set comes in a set box. I could create all kinds of imaginative train sets in this catalog and the last couple catalogues. Creating imaginary train sets just to get in some pointless dig against Lionel is silly. Its not a pointless dig. I was just pointing out that usually collectors buy one of each item and term it as the complete set. And correct, it could be added cars from additional catalogs is called the entire set. Look at the Freedom train, and I love state box car "Sets" ... its all relative.
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Post by madockawando on Aug 1, 2024 19:36:04 GMT
What a collector thinks is a set is all about his fantasy and imagination , not what is in the catalog. A train set comes in a set box. I could create all kinds of imaginative train sets in this catalog and the last couple catalogues. Creating imaginary train sets just to get in some pointless dig against Lionel is silly. Its not a pointless dig. I was just pointing out that usually collectors buy one of each item and term it as the complete set. And correct, it could be added cars from additional catalogs is called the entire set. Look at the Freedom train, and I love state box car "Sets" ... its all relative. That all has nothing to do with this catalog. Collectors. An do what they want. The train set the OP mentioned is imaginary at an imaginary price that no one pays. Who cares about the I love states sets at this point? Most MPC is sold by the box or the pound at this point. |
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Post by JDaddy on Aug 1, 2024 19:55:49 GMT
Add Palm plant here... but it does. If I am a collector and I wish to purchase one of each on this page so I don't miss out on having one of each … aka " buying the complete set of all cars offered" and not missing out...than its not imaginary. ITS THE REAL DEAL. I need to shell out a considerable amount of coin(probably around 4100 dollars) when these cars come out, and with my luck its all at Christmas. That is a big hit to the wallet.
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Post by madockawando on Aug 1, 2024 20:24:55 GMT
Add Palm plant here... but it does. If I am a collector and I wish to purchase one of each on this page so I don't miss out on having one of each … aka " buying the complete set of all cars offered" and not missing out...than its not imaginary. ITS THE REAL DEAL. I need to shell out a considerable amount of coin(probably around 4100 dollars) when these cars come out, and with my luck its all at Christmas. That is a big hit to the wallet. Sorry, train sets in a train catalog come in their own set box. Its that simple, how you decide to build your collection is up to you. But back to the OP's post. I would like to see him build his imaginary GG-1 "set" and price it out according to a dealer's early buy program. That's the real price, not the catalog price. I would like to hear him explain what he thinks is a fair, realistic price for his "set" should be. He should have some figure in mid, after all, he did say that he "really, really like the set" (its right there in the thread title). So, lets see what it will all cost from your favorite dealer and if that still too high, let's hear what your fair, realistic price is that you would buy your GG-1 "Set". Bluff called, let's hear it...
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