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Post by runamuckchuck on Dec 8, 2023 2:37:45 GMT
For those who did not read my previous post, this is the post which caused me to be banned from another forum. I offer it here in the belief that the message is hopeful, positive and encouraging rather than trouble making.
You be the judge.
But please as a favor to me keep your comments if any respectful and on message. This is not about a forum or a moderator this is about asking Lionel to be better while giving them the opportunity to do so, and to improve the dialog between them and their collector/enthusiast base; nothing more or less.
The following is an accurate transcription of my original post on another forum.
"Among many here and elsewhere I have expressed my frustration with the lack of consistent quality with some recently highly touted /expected Lionel engines/sets. At least among those who follow this forum and others I believe this point has been made at least amongst ourselves.
However just as we can become insensitive to the disturbing news we hear daily in the various media outlets, I suspect that Lionel officials become insensitive to never ending criticism no matter how seemingly appropriate that criticism is from our perspective.
Get to the point Chuck!
My gift to Lionel is my personal cease fire from criticism for the rest of the year, not to forgive and forget, but to allow Lionel the opportunity to publicly address the quality issues that have been the recent subject of so much angst in this forum and elsewhere.
I encourage the President of Lionel to publicly acknowledge either in an open letter, or via social media the quality issues that we have addressed in this forum if not in general then specific recent releases and describe the steps that Lionel will or plans to undertake to correct/prevent these same issues from occurring in the future.
Before we get into the the full swing of the 2024 promotional/preorder season would seem to be a perfect time to allow Lionel to clear the air and layout their vision for future improvements.
Call me naive or worse. Say that it has been done before and failed. Tell me this will never work. Tell me that Lionel will never change. I don't care.
This is here. This is now. This is an opportunity worth offering.
The real gift I extend to Lionel is not the pausing of my critical comments when warranted.
It is the gift of a chance for Lionel to reset the relationship they have with their customers, which if this forum is any indication is badly in need of repair.
I hope you will consider joining me in giving your similar gift to Lionel this holiday season.
Regardless a sincere Merry Christmas to all!"
Thank you all for reading this post. My hope is that it resonates with you all in a positive way to continue to the extent you feel it is warranted to encourage, cajole and if it comes to that insist that Lionel improve.
As I did in my original post please allow me to extend to you and your families my wish for a Merry Christmas and a blessed holiday season!
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Post by rtraincollector on Dec 8, 2023 3:14:32 GMT
we all know the other forum, the one that if you even come close to bad mouthing a advertiser, it gets removed and you get banned.
I refuse to even go there to read. ( I can't post as I don't support them $$ ) There the only train forum that requires you to support them to be able to post. Personally I never got enough out of them to feel it warranted my support.
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Post by david1 on Dec 8, 2023 6:24:41 GMT
A well written and thoughtful post. Maybe Lionel will listen and do the right thing. More than I can say about that other forum. We have the right to free speech and that right should not be impinged.
Dave
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Post by harborbelt70 on Dec 8, 2023 13:24:57 GMT
A well written and thoughtful post. Maybe Lionel will listen and do the right thing. More than I can say about that other forum. We have the right to free speech and that right should not be impinged. Dave
I think that the public-facing reps of Lionel esp. Ryan and Dave have a tough time because they have to answer first to Lionel’s investors, who probably have a strong interest in wringing a profit out of anything Lionel imports and that means cutting back on after-sales service - including anything that they think they can get away without having to recall it and/or provide a fix at their own expense. Call me a cynic but listening to someone else’s problem and then actually doing the right thing about it are two separate matters.
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Post by Adam on Dec 8, 2023 13:58:52 GMT
runamuckchuck, your feedback and constructive criticism is more than fair and you are welcome to express your opinion. Thank you for posting this on the OGF.
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Post by Country Joe on Dec 8, 2023 16:08:48 GMT
Chuck, what you wrote was fine and certainly not worthy of banishment IMHO.
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Post by thebigcrabcake on Dec 8, 2023 17:07:41 GMT
I don't think the leadership at Lionel will be going on the record with an admission regarding the recent North Pole Central Sleigh Bells Express mistake. The misspelling of "Yuletide" appeared in the catalog which means it was a pre-production error. They can't blame that on non-english speaking factory workers in China. Plus, someone in the USA had to (or should have) approve a production sample. This mistake was a Management mistake. No one in North Carolina is going to stand up and take responsibility.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Dec 8, 2023 18:08:59 GMT
I don't think the leadership at Lionel will be going on the record with an admission regarding the recent North Pole Central Sleigh Bells Express mistake. The misspelling of "Yuletide" appeared in the catalog which means it was a pre-production error. They can't blame that on non-english speaking factory workers in China. Plus, someone in the USA had to (or should have) approve a production sample. This mistake was a Management mistake. No one in North Carolina is going to stand up and take responsibility. Emile, as RM (rocky mountaineer not Ronald McDonald) first reported the initial response from Lionel was just that as far as we are not redoing the car nor will there be a refund/return of that specific car option. A day or so after that I called Lionel and the person I spoke with said that her customer service boss was aware of the situation and that her boss stated to the effect that management was considering how to address the problem. While subtle I took this as if not a positive step, at least a step back from the initial response. Truth be told, while I had sympathy for those who did, I did not have any skin in the game with the 20th Century or the Strasburg#90 sagas, but I did in the Sleigh Bell Limited. It was not the spelling error but the Lionel response which was the catalyst for the 'My Christmas Present to Lionel' post.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Dec 8, 2023 18:22:00 GMT
A well written and thoughtful post. Maybe Lionel will listen and do the right thing. More than I can say about that other forum. We have the right to free speech and that right should not be impinged. Dave
I think that the public-facing reps of Lionel esp. Ryan and Dave have a tough time because they have to answer first to Lionel’s investors, who probably have a strong interest in wringing a profit out of anything Lionel imports and that means cutting back on after-sales service - including anything that they think they can get away without having to recall it and/or provide a fix at their own expense. Call me a cynic but listening to someone else’s problem and then actually doing the right thing about it are two separate matters. Dave, I have worked for a publicly traded company with stock holders. Not quite the same as investors in a venture capital company but close enough. In the publicly traded company it was all about getting the stock price up for deferred compensation, executive distributions and the like. Our management behaved as though the stockholders were our customers rather than the customers we actually served. I have no insight into the culture of Lionel, however I know from experience that it can be a very difficult juggling act to satisfy both investors and customers.
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Post by healey36 on Dec 8, 2023 19:23:23 GMT
I don't understand why majority-owner Guggenheim has hung onto Lionel LLC as long as it has. Venture capital firms don't make money by hanging onto acquisitions, the downside risk being too great. They typically make money by either turning marginal/failing companies around and selling them for more than they invested, or they break them up and sell them in pieces, all happening within five years or so of acquisition. Remember, Guggenheim got their majority stake as Lionel emerged from bankruptcy back in 2008 or so. They've now owned Lionel for 15+ years. When you compare Lionel's situation with "normal" VC behavior, there's not many positives to account for it.
To be honest, and Calabrese said this many years ago, Lionel is just a brand. Guggenheim is a firm wrapped up in the entertainment business. At the end of the day, the goal is to dollarize the brand, i.e. sell as much stuff as possible branded as Lionel. That's why I can buy socks and tee shirts with the Lionel brand on them, kitchen magnets with the Lionel brand on them, music CDs with the Lionel brand on them, Christmas balls with the Lionel brand on them, etc. Making toy trains is the ends to the means, but probably not the big driver one might think.
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Post by Traindiesel! on Dec 9, 2023 4:46:34 GMT
It’s been demonstrated over the years that Lionel doesn’t respond to or acknowledge any complaints or ‘pleas’, as evident by the continued product deficiencies. The people at the helm of Lionel are just cogs in the wheel. The only way to slightly get their attention is to keep our wallets closed. They probably operate by the 80 - 20 rule. Any returns or complaints under 20% are within their budget. There are a lot of buyers who accept/ don’t notice or care about defects most people here won’t tolerate. We are within the 20% that Lionel can ignore. They’ll happily keep producing product, some that are home runs, some with defects. Buyer beware.
It seems 3Rd Rail is the only O gauge model designer- importer that performs close to the vest quality controls. Trains are low volume products that provide less return than say, appliances, cars or furniture. Even so it seems customer service is lacking across the board in all consumer products.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Dec 9, 2023 13:22:10 GMT
I don't understand why majority-owner Guggenheim has hung onto Lionel LLC as long as it has. Venture capital firms don't make money by hanging onto acquisitions, the downside risk being too great. They typically make money by either turning marginal/failing companies around and selling them for more than they invested, or they break them up and sell them in pieces, all happening within five years or so of acquisition. Remember, Guggenheim got their majority stake as Lionel emerged from bankruptcy back in 2008 or so. They've now owned Lionel for 15+ years. When you compare Lionel's situation with "normal" VC behavior, there's not many positives to account for it. To be honest, and Calabrese said this many years ago, Lionel is just a brand. Guggenheim is a firm wrapped up in the entertainment business. At the end of the day, the goal is to dollarize the brand, i.e. sell as much stuff as possible branded as Lionel. That's why I can buy socks and tee shirts with the Lionel brand on them, kitchen magnets with the Lionel brand on them, music CDs with the Lionel brand on them, Christmas balls with the Lionel brand on them, etc. Making toy trains is the ends to the means, but probably not the big driver one might think. Maybe there is somebody in charge at Guggenheim as there is a Menards who likes trains.
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Post by healey36 on Dec 9, 2023 13:24:30 GMT
I don't understand why majority-owner Guggenheim has hung onto Lionel LLC as long as it has. Venture capital firms don't make money by hanging onto acquisitions, the downside risk being too great. They typically make money by either turning marginal/failing companies around and selling them for more than they invested, or they break them up and sell them in pieces, all happening within five years or so of acquisition. Remember, Guggenheim got their majority stake as Lionel emerged from bankruptcy back in 2008 or so. They've now owned Lionel for 15+ years. When you compare Lionel's situation with "normal" VC behavior, there's not many positives to account for it. To be honest, and Calabrese said this many years ago, Lionel is just a brand. Guggenheim is a firm wrapped up in the entertainment business. At the end of the day, the goal is to dollarize the brand, i.e. sell as much stuff as possible branded as Lionel. That's why I can buy socks and tee shirts with the Lionel brand on them, kitchen magnets with the Lionel brand on them, music CDs with the Lionel brand on them, Christmas balls with the Lionel brand on them, etc. Making toy trains is the ends to the means, but probably not the big driver one might think. Maybe there is somebody in charge at Guggenheim as there is a Menards who likes trains. That could be, although my experience with VC people is that they are more akin to vultures than love-birds, lol.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Dec 9, 2023 13:39:46 GMT
It’s been demonstrated over the years that Lionel doesn’t respond to or acknowledge any complaints or ‘pleas’, as evident by the continued product deficiencies. The people at the helm of Lionel are just cogs in the wheel. The only way to slightly get their attention is to keep our wallets closed. They probably operate by the 80 - 20 rule. Any returns or complaints under 20% are within their budget. There are a lot of buyers who accept/ don’t notice or care about defects most people here won’t tolerate. We are within the 20% that Lionel can ignore. They’ll happily keep producing product, some that are home runs, some with defects. Buyer beware. It seems 3Rd Rail is the only O gauge model designer- importer that performs close to the vest quality controls. Trains are low volume products that provide less return than say, appliances, cars or furniture. Even so it seems customer service is lacking across the board in all consumer products. While I don't necessarily disagree with you hope springs eternal until it doesn't. With that in mind, I carefully crafted a cover letter to accompany a copy of my 'Gift' post and sent it via snail mail to Howard Hitchcock, and Ryan Kunkel. In the spirit of the holiday I am hopeful that I will receive a constructive acknowledgement/reply. Wants versus needs can be tricky sometimes. But once clarified, subsequent actions are pretty clear cut. But to your point about the 20% return rate; did I not see somewhere (maybe a You Tube video?) that the Lionel retail mall stores are selling among other products Lionel returned/refurbished items? If correct perhaps that is part of the strategy to recapture some of that lost revenue. Not a bad idea IMO; sort of like the Sear's Outlet stores of days gone by. Has anyone actually been to a Lionel Mall store and can report what they saw for sale?
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Post by dennym57 on Dec 9, 2023 16:04:28 GMT
Well Chuck, we don't ban anyone here, but we might tie you to the tracks in front of a on coming train.😋 That was a well thought out post and you have our full support for posting it.
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