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Post by edlloyd on Nov 14, 2023 2:09:43 GMT
I came across a tinplate set and want some help from someone here that is knowledgeable about this set. I took pictures of the boxes to show you what set it is and based off of the pictures and what I tell you can you help me make a decision on a possible purchase. The set is used but in very nice condition. I opened the boxes and looked at them and other than them being dusty I saw no issues. I would have preferred the set be in nickel trim but they aren't they are the brass trim. I believe the set is from the early 2000's but not sure. I do not think the engine has the digital board in it. The set is the Blue comet and the cars are state cars with 3 wheels not the 2 wheel version. The engine is a 400E. Is this engine the one to get or is the newer model better? I want the one that is going to be reliable with the least chance for issues. What value do you put on this set as is in its condition?
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gftiv
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by gftiv on Nov 14, 2023 12:51:39 GMT
This appears to be a conventional set. It will run forever if kept lubricated. Parts are available.
Value depends on condition. You stated very nice.
Value between $1000 and $2000. $1000 is a steal. $2000 is a high end retail price at a store. expect a price of $1600 to $1800. Blue Comet sets are hot. This is my estimate on prices. Reality may vary.
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Post by healey36 on Nov 14, 2023 15:37:40 GMT
When MTH stopped producing tinplate, the market for remaining new stock went through the roof. Now the prices in the secondary market will surge as NOS dries up. A Blue Comet set probably sold well north of a grand when new, so I would expect that this would command at least that, possibly $1200-$1500. With patience and some diligent searching, one could likely assemble an original Lionel set for not too much more than that (although it won't be as nice and shiny).
I own a number of MTH "Traditional" sets from new, and they are not bullet-proof. My Lake Shore Limited set sold by the LCCA was DOA, as was the 254E in the 299 outfit I picked up a few years later. The MTH open-frame motor seems pretty reliable, but the E-units are suspect. The 616 Flying Yankee set I bought after the unannounced cessation of production ran perfectly. Presumably this set you bought, or are looking to buy, has been run and is functional.
Original tinplate prices are falling (at least from where I'm looking). Only rare items or complete sets in original boxes seem to seem to command premium pricing anymore. The rest of the stuff is much more affordable. I'm good with that.
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Post by rtraincollector on Nov 14, 2023 16:47:43 GMT
I have The remake of the 400E but from Lionel, made by MTH. It is a true conventional engine. ( I do not like proto sound. I take it the DCRU is there conventional one) I have had problems with Proto so I stay away as I guess I just haven't learned the different ones.
Now there cars are beautiful.
Most of my standard gauge is Lionel prewar originals.
Except for green set bottom left and the tan passenger cars above it everything else is prewar Lionel. The green passenger bottom left and tan passenger cars are MTH, the green engine in front of the green cars is not either can't think at moment what brand.
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Post by healey36 on Nov 14, 2023 17:59:56 GMT
A beautiful collection, for sure, and nicely displayed. I have just three or four standard gauge sets, two being Lionel and two being MTH. I used to have a loop of SG on the layout, but I replaced that with another loop of O-gauge when I reconfigured everything some ten years ago. Now the SG sees little run time with the exception of a loop around the Christmas tree every couple years (the other years are O-gauge loops). My favorite is the first one I ever bought, a little set from the late 1920's featuring a Lionel no. 33 0-B-0, a Lionel 35 coach and a Lionel 36 observation. The previous owner refurbished the 33; I followed up with a refurbishment of the passenger cars.   Sorry for the thread hi-jack. The Blue Comet set is pretty nice, original or repro. I'd grab it if you haven't. |
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Post by edlloyd on Nov 14, 2023 21:58:09 GMT
This appears to be a conventional set. It will run forever if kept lubricated. Parts are available.
Value depends on condition. You stated very nice.
Value between $1000 and $2000. $1000 is a steal. $2000 is a high end retail price at a store. expect a price of $1600 to $1800. Blue Comet sets are hot. This is my estimate on prices. Reality may vary.
How do you tell if the engine is conventional or not? The set I am looking at has brass trim. I think I would prefer the nickel trim but don't know if it is a deal breaker or not. Will the brass stay shiny? Will this engine and cars run ok on a 42" curve?
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Post by healey36 on Nov 14, 2023 23:51:39 GMT
Traditional sets have an open-frame motor, not the can motor that powers the Protosound stuff. The box label clearly indicates this is a Protosound-equipped loco, not a traditional-powered loco. Brass versus nickel is just variations of trim...brass usually was used in the earliest Lionel sets, later replaced by nickel.
Will a 400 navigate O-42 curves? I don't know. I have a 392 (4-4-2)and that will go around an O-42 curve. I would presume the 400 will as well...might not look so great, but I suspect it will make it.
If the shop has the wherewithal to test it, have them do it. If it's been sitting for awhile, the battery might be dead, which can lead to problems in getting it going again. The good news - no cheesy MTH E-unit to worry about (just circuit boards).
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Post by edlloyd on Nov 15, 2023 0:19:23 GMT
Traditional sets have an open-frame motor, not the can motor that powers the Protosound stuff. The box label clearly indicates this is a Protosound-equipped loco, not a traditional-powered loco. Brass versus nickel is just variations of trim...brass usually was used in the earliest Lionel sets, later replaced by nickel. Will a 400 navigate O-42 curves? I don't know. I have a 392 (4-4-2)and that will go around an O-42 curve. I would presume the 400 will as well...might not look so great, but I suspect it will make it. If the shop has the wherewithal to test it, have them do it. If it's been sitting for awhile, the battery might be dead, which can lead to problems in getting it going again. The good news - no cheesy MTH E-unit to worry about (just circuit boards). What is an E-unit? If you were looking for a Blue Comet tinplate set what specs would you look for? Are the traditional powered locos the better option?
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 15, 2023 0:31:48 GMT
This is the set from around 2000 as you suspect. The cars are not State Cars but are Blue Comet size cars. The engine has a Proto 1 board in it, if it is as the box states on the label (lower right hand corner "by QSI"). I would immediately check to see if it has a BCR installed. It should be fine with a BCR in it if the board is still good. Is not command control. I have this set and it is still running strong. The first Standard Gauge set I bought. Good Luck if you purchase it! It's s great price if under a grand!
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Post by edlloyd on Nov 15, 2023 2:06:37 GMT
This is the set from around 2000 as you suspect. The cars are not State Cars but are Blue Comet size cars. The engine has a Proto 1 board in it, if it is as the box states on the label (lower right hand corner "by QSI"). I would immediately check to see if it has a BCR installed. It should be fine with a BCR in it if the board is still good. Is not command control. I have this set and it is still running strong. The first Standard Gauge set I bought. Good Luck if you purchase it! It's s great price if under a grand! What is a BCR? I thought the cars are state cars if they have 12 wheels? The ones in this set do have 12 wheels. Am I missing something? How do you tell? The set includes 4 cars and the engine/tender. It is a 400E. I think he is asking to much. The set has been for sale for over a year. He is asking $2200. If I decide to make an offer I feel $1600-1700 is about right. I am nervous about shelling out that much money for something I know very little about. I just have always wanted a nice tinplate. The Blue Comet is so beautiful looking. Timeless.
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Post by rtraincollector on Nov 15, 2023 2:23:07 GMT
My Stephen Girard cars have 6 wheel trucks but are a lot smaller than the state cars or the 400 serries cars ( 418, 419, 431, & 490 )
The green on bottom left are close in size to the Blue comet cars above them in the 400 serries I was talking about
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Post by healey36 on Nov 15, 2023 12:08:55 GMT
Traditional sets have an open-frame motor, not the can motor that powers the Protosound stuff. The box label clearly indicates this is a Protosound-equipped loco, not a traditional-powered loco. Brass versus nickel is just variations of trim...brass usually was used in the earliest Lionel sets, later replaced by nickel. Will a 400 navigate O-42 curves? I don't know. I have a 392 (4-4-2)and that will go around an O-42 curve. I would presume the 400 will as well...might not look so great, but I suspect it will make it. If the shop has the wherewithal to test it, have them do it. If it's been sitting for awhile, the battery might be dead, which can lead to problems in getting it going again. The good news - no cheesy MTH E-unit to worry about (just circuit boards). What is an E-unit? If you were looking for a Blue Comet tinplate set what specs would you look for? Are the traditional powered locos the better option? An E-unit is the electro-mechanical device that cycles the locomotive's motor between forward, neutral, and reverse when power is applied. The four cycle E-unit was invented by Ives back in the early part of the 20th Century, subsequently acquired and used by Lionel after Ives folded in 1932. It was the standard control method for Lionel toy trains for at least a half-century. An updated version of the E-unit is used in MTH's "Traditional" locomotives, as is a reproduction of the open-framed motor. "ProtoSound" equipped MTH locomotives are an entirely different kettle of fish. The E-unit and open-frame motor has been replaced by digitized electronic components, software, and a can motor. New features include things like synchronized locomotive chuffing sound, synchronized smoke, crew talk, remote uncoupling (on knuckle-coupler equipped locos), not to mention remote-control via hand-held devices. A can motor generally provides better/smoother operation and speed-control. There's a lot to love when it all works. The question is, how long will it all work? There's been a great deal of talk over the years regarding the expected life of printed circuit boards and other electronic components. How long will they last before replacement is required? Will replacements be available? How difficult is it to debug software issues should they crop up? Now that MTH has moved into a greatly down-sized business model, will they continue to offer product support for an aging line of toys? There have already been issues related to the availability of replacement parts for some of the older stuff. A lot to consider, for sure. I would certainly make sure the locomotive is functional before purchasing it. At $2200, you'd be paying a premium for it, so I would be sure it is in good operating condition.
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Post by healey36 on Nov 15, 2023 12:25:45 GMT
This is the set from around 2000 as you suspect. The cars are not State Cars but are Blue Comet size cars. The engine has a Proto 1 board in it, if it is as the box states on the label (lower right hand corner "by QSI"). I would immediately check to see if it has a BCR installed. It should be fine with a BCR in it if the board is still good. Is not command control. I have this set and it is still running strong. The first Standard Gauge set I bought. Good Luck if you purchase it! It's s great price if under a grand! What is a BCR? I thought the cars are state cars if they have 12 wheels? The ones in this set do have 12 wheels. Am I missing something? How do you tell? The set includes 4 cars and the engine/tender. It is a 400E. I think he is asking to much. The set has been for sale for over a year. He is asking $2200. If I decide to make an offer I feel $1600-1700 is about right. I am nervous about shelling out that much money for something I know very little about. I just have always wanted a nice tinplate. The Blue Comet is so beautiful looking. Timeless. A BCR (battery component replacement) is basically a rechargeable capacitor. A capacitor can hold its charge for a great deal longer time and theoretically has a much longer life than a traditional rechargeable battery. A dead battery introduces a risk of damage to circuitry or garbled software. A BCR should mitigate that risk.
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Post by edlloyd on Nov 15, 2023 21:03:44 GMT
What is a BCR? I thought the cars are state cars if they have 12 wheels? The ones in this set do have 12 wheels. Am I missing something? How do you tell? The set includes 4 cars and the engine/tender. It is a 400E. I think he is asking to much. The set has been for sale for over a year. He is asking $2200. If I decide to make an offer I feel $1600-1700 is about right. I am nervous about shelling out that much money for something I know very little about. I just have always wanted a nice tinplate. The Blue Comet is so beautiful looking. Timeless. A BCR (battery component replacement) is basically a rechargeable capacitor. A capacitor can hold its charge for a great deal longer time and theoretically has a much longer life than a traditional rechargeable battery. A dead battery introduces a risk of damage to circuitry or garbled software. A BCR should mitigate that risk. Thank you so much for educating me. I am learning a lot. If you had the option of an engine with or without Protosound which one would you choose?
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Post by healey36 on Nov 15, 2023 21:39:17 GMT
As the MTH situation is right now, I would likely only buy "Traditional" powered equipment as I suspect I could repair it if something failed; ProtoSound I, II, or III, I have little to no capability to troubleshoot/repair those. When the 9E (ProtoSound) died a few years back, I had a shop not too far from me that could service it. I don't know if they are still able to do that and what alternatives exist. For any future problems I run into, an option would be to gut the electronics and replace them with a Dallee system...that's something I could probably figure out.
There's only one MTH loco out there now that interests me, that being a 2-10-0 "Russian" Decapod. I've looked at a few second-hand examples and folks are asking crazy money. I think the dies for this were purchased by Lionel, so they will likely produce a version at some point (if they haven't already). That said, recent Lionel pricing would likely preclude me from going after one.
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