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Post by JDaddy on Jan 2, 2020 19:11:59 GMT
Not since my Prewar Lionel 1933 passenger car couplers have I been so frustrated !! You may or may not remember playing with prewar cars when you where a kid were you need 4 hands to uncouple and couple most cars. And still needed to shake them loose. When I found a nice 700 series prewar set at York I was reminded of why we never switched cars in the yard. 
But all kidding aside, I am working on my 3rd set of new Lionel 21 inch passenger cars and the couplers are driving me nuts! I know they were developed to create a tighter gap around curves but they actually are more frustrating than they are worth. 1) On S curves they will derail. Even 120 inch radius S curves 2) When you first start your consist they rubber band back and forth that create this whimsical inchworm movement 3) The dumb tack couplers look bad and if you lose the cover the pedestal will short on the center rail 4) The couplers tend to droop and sag 5) Even at lights speed crashing movements - they will not couple 6) The bodies still have these huge clear out notches. 7) Removal of the couplers and the little C clips launch across the room - never to be seen again. 8) the base for the V notch has removed so much material that any coupler replacement will entail a complete rebuild of the car floor.
I have 3 sets of these still sitting in the box.. I cannot run.
Any thoughts on a conversion method that will get these running again?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 20:44:39 GMT
Can you retrofit some MTH or Atlas couplers? The thumbtacks ARE unsightly AND, IMHO, ridiculous.
PS: I know it's not funny but I LOLd at #7. We have ALL done that.
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Post by JDaddy on Jan 2, 2020 20:48:10 GMT
I was looking at the real estate of the floor boards... nothing left. I will have to create some new floor structure. Has anyone used the Kadee scale long shank couplers?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 21:27:54 GMT
Is this a new problem? I have never seen it mentioned before.
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Post by ptc on Jan 2, 2020 22:00:52 GMT
Had a terrible experience with the Lionel 21" plastic passenger cars, so I am not surprised at your experiences, John.
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Post by JDaddy on Jan 2, 2020 23:54:23 GMT
Is this a new problem? I have never seen it mentioned before. No, not a new problem. I don't believe anyone has shared these characteristics of these couplers yet. They are beautiful cars, just they need to have new couplers installed on them to run more reliable.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 3, 2020 0:08:52 GMT
The only thing useful I have ever seen about these couplers (which comes from our mutual friend Norton) concerns shortening the gap between cars, which I think probably does not answer your issue.
As far as my knowledge goes, the design originates in the Acela kinematic couplers and they did not stand up to normal running either. Not because of the IR connection but because the mounts are prone to bind.
The option to install Kadee long shank couplers suddenly comes to mind; have you considered that? Sorry, reading more fully/carefully I see that you have. On the cars that I have (only UP Excursion and Texas Special) installing them would not interfere with the interior assemblies. Having investigated many of them, I think that they would take a Kadee mount without major plastic surgery.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 1:14:19 GMT
If you wind up changing to Kadees, please post up a video of your work. I don't own any of these cars yet, but one day may... and it would be great to document the proper repair for posterity. |
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Post by JDaddy on Jan 3, 2020 3:07:46 GMT
I was looking at targeting the 746 long shank Kadee coupler. They are metal with a plastic draft gear box. Then I saw the 742's. Which are a tad shorter. I was wondering if anyone has made the conversion and how far back the center line of the coupler attachment should be from the end of the car?  |
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 3, 2020 10:55:06 GMT
I was looking at targeting the 746 long shank Kadee coupler. They are metal with a plastic draft gear box. Then I saw the 742's. Which are a tad shorter. I was wondering if anyone has made the conversion and how far back the center line of the coupler attachment should be from the end of the car? I think it might depend on what diameter curves you are intending to run these on. I have not done this conversion on mine because Norton’s method is to move the kinematic assembly in toward the middle of the cars by 1/4” and I am persuaded to try that. (I never use anything less than O-72 curves.) However I checked out the pre-installed mounting position described in the 21” manual and it looks like Lionel recommend a 747 coupler, which would produce a fairly close coupling: 
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Post by JDaddy on Jan 3, 2020 14:03:50 GMT
Thanks for the screen shot. This shines some light on the intent.
However, to negotiate 072 curves and accommodate for the diaphragms, its physically impossible to package protect for the 747. Also note the offset is down in the graphic which is incorrect for the 747 which has an upward offset shown by micro-mark... Now I am not sure which is correct. Also why would you shim it down and offset the coupler down as well? Am I missing something or are being steered to purchase the wrong couplers?
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 3, 2020 15:26:01 GMT
I had a rummage around to see if I have a 747 coupler on hand and, lo and behold, here it is (as sold with an 817 gear box):  Based on this I think that (not for the first time) the Lionel manual image is inaccurate and maybe the recommendation to use the 747 couplers isn't right either. Looking at the kinematic couplers on my first run 21" ABS cars, these Kadees would not reduce the car separation by very much at all. However, I think that in the second run cars including the UP Excursion sets there's a different mechanism because the separation between the cars is greater - and much more than it needs to be. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 18:11:33 GMT
I think that we will stay away from Lionel, especially 21” passenger cars. We seem to be tempting fate and usually being disappointed.
We have not had a problem with Scott’s Silver Meteor passenger couplers and only one MTH. Cost more but they work without having to change what the manufacturer should have made correctly.
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Post by JDaddy on Jan 3, 2020 18:53:23 GMT
I would like to stay clear of these as well, but alas I am a train fanatic that needs consoling... or is it counseling? Any who, there are not many 21 inch scale UP cars to purchase. I have the K line 18 inch and 21 inch full passenger car sets, and I have been running them faithfully, and now with the excursion UP set, and Challenger set that I was waiting YEARS to acquire… it sits under the table, unfair! Now if that is not incentive enough for me to get these rolling top side, I may as well sell them. Which I cannot bear to do at this point... Instead I am the engineer that has to fix stuff. All kidding aside if I can share some ideas and figure this out, many may benefit. So I am ruling the 747 out and will look at the 746. Does anyone know the shank length dimension difference between the 746 and the 742? Also is there an offset long shank coupler available? |
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Post by ptc on Jan 3, 2020 19:11:44 GMT
"I think that we will stay away from Lionel, especially 21” passenger cars. We seem to be tempting fate and usually being disappointed."
Very smart move in my opinion, Bill.
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