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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2021 20:21:20 GMT
Yes, I read that also, Lee. They are considering a fee for new members only. Like I wrote a few days ago, all they want is $12 a year to be a Supporting member or a digital subscription, or both. Also, after thinking about it, I think it is a good idea to make sure a potential new member is who he says he is. That especially comes into play on the Buy/Sell posts. Spending time helping admin an O-Gauge Facebook group, I have seen where it is easy to let someone slip in who will cheat someone. I would hate to see that on any forum.
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Post by ptc on Oct 25, 2021 20:23:35 GMT
Most of us are sports fans. Ever hear of this one? The football coach calls a time out. Quarterback tells coach that play don't work so well. Coach then says let's try this one.
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Post by david1 on Oct 25, 2021 20:28:52 GMT
Was that the real intention? Or now they are just covering their butts!!
Many years ago they tried to add pay to play but because of the blow back of the members it got dropped. So you see its always been a thought in back of their minds.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2021 20:52:05 GMT
Unless I'm missing something here, isn't just about every aspect of our hobby "pay to play?"
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Post by ptc on Oct 25, 2021 20:57:17 GMT
"Unless I'm missing something here, isn't just about every aspect of our hobby "pay to play?"
I guess that goes for everything we do, but we all have choices thank goodness.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2021 22:27:14 GMT
We do have choices, but I have to say that this thread has gone (pardon the pun) off the rails. Without knowing all the facts, someone started this thread and it has spread like wildfire throughout the toy train community. Everything about this hobby is pay-to-play. Whether you pay a fee or make a donation, you're still opening your wallet. The reason/reasons for another forum charging a fee are nobody's business but theirs. Period.
Like Bill Webb, I find value in membership in both forums. In all candor, I cannot think of a thread on the other forum that speaks negatively about this forum. While they may not have liked the fact that this forum was established, I honestly don't recall anything being said over there that comes even remotely close to the things that have been said here just on this thread alone.
Before anyone posts any other comments here, please ask yourself what good will come from it. Enough is enough.
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Post by dlagrua on Oct 25, 2021 23:05:35 GMT
Unless I'm missing something here, isn't just about every aspect of our hobby "pay to play?" Yes and No. Forums are widely used and paid for by advertisers to promote their products. If a forum is used mainly to sell a magazine, online subscriptions, or products for their advertisers it should be completely free. If a forum is created for member benefits only then that's an entirely different story. The argument then simply becomes who benefits most by the forum, the members or the sellers? BTW, this forum is free but thankfully heavily member supported because people realize the benefit goes only to the forum user. I also joined because my personal info hasn't been sold to advertisers and any content or discussion here helps only the membership and myself. Not so on the other forum. My email inbox is now overloaded with spam adverting by train sellers.
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Post by laz57 on Oct 25, 2021 23:20:09 GMT
I haven’t received any notice on this pay to play. I am on this forum and the other. I have learned lots on both forums and have sold lots more on the other forum. They do get more traffic from people that sell and want ads, along with lots of technical help is why I enjoy learning from some really talented people. If it comes down to a measly 12 bucks a year then I’m in. Just a buck a month to get lots of information is worth it. Learning is a daily activity and if I can fill my toolbox with knowledge, I’m a happy train nerd.
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Post by ptc on Oct 26, 2021 0:18:53 GMT
"I cannot think of a thread on the other forum that speaks negatively about this forum"
Just to be fair and balanced, everything that mentions the OGF at the other place is immediately deleted. Not surprising that you have NEVER come across anything that references us. Many times on the OGF, there are positive references to the other forum, even on this thread, and they are not deleted. It comes down to free speech and the ability to represent all points of view. That has been one of our founding principles.
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Post by jimk on Oct 26, 2021 21:17:27 GMT
ry4iuiam
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Post by Country Joe on Oct 26, 2021 23:09:11 GMT
If they only charge new members there won't be very many new members. That won't pay the bills or create the profit desired. Then what happens when the members required to pay for membership find out that they are the dupes paying while others are getting by for free. I'm glad that I'm a persona non grata there.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 26, 2021 23:45:23 GMT
Just to be fair and balanced, everything that mentions the OGF at the other place is immediately deleted. The reason this occurs it that the TOS very clearly states that no one is to use their forum to support another forum. It is their forum and their TOS. Also, the reference to a possible monthly charge was to be for new members. TRAIN on! I thought I was finished with this thread. But since some folks wanna tell some of us what we did wrong over there, let's set the record straight. The mission of that forum is to strictly talk about trains. Sounds simple enough, but the devil is always in the details.
Unfortunately, the powers-at-be there love controlling what that means on a near-daily basis. If you show ANY level of independent thinking... if you show ANY amount of personality in your posts... if you're flat-out objective in your reviews talking about the good and the bad... then you're put on notice, edited, censored, and eventually booted. It's happened to TOO MANY talented people to simply hide behind back-handed comments that label such prolific posters as troublemakers or pot-stirrers.
And here's where the "It's their sandbox, their rules" argument breaks down. If you say you wanna talk about trains, then the mere mention of another forum or one of its threads to sight an interesting topic shouldn't be frowned upon. It's called SHARING information about the hobby. THAT's talking about trains. We allow it here on OGF. They don't allow it there, because they're insecure about a new member-supported forum completely disrupting their sponsor-based business model. And that has far-reaching aspects with respect to "pay-to-play" and "talking everything trains".
Years ago when a now well-known custom layout-building company was a "new kid on the block" so to speak, I was an early customer of their kit bridges... HUGE bridges in fact. I was so impressed with the kit I purchased, I posted about it. You know... on a forum that was supposedly established to talk about... what else? Everything TRAINS. The thread was deleted. Hmmmm... So weeks later I saw one of this company's layouts which they had produced for a a public display at Christmastime. And once again, I was blown away by how MAGNIFICENT their work was. To put it bluntly, even the word MAGNIFICENT is an understatement for the amazing stuff they deliver. So I posted a thread with lots of MY photos which I took of the display. To my dismay, THAT thread which took time to formulate and describe photos mysteriously disappeared also.
Anyone care to guess why those threads were deleted? After asking the powers-at-be about it, I was told members weren't allowed to "promote" a company who wasn't a forum sponsor -- which this company wasn't at the time. Seriously, who THINKS like that? Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's patootie whether this company was a forum sponsor or not. That wasn't the point. The fact is: I was "talking trains" and wanted to SHARE something that was a tremendously positive statement about our hobby -- especially at Christmas. But no dice, unless that company would become a sponsor -- which they eventually did several years later, when a new principal player came on board. Now you can post about that company to your heart's content. THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE ULTIMATE FORM OF PAY-TO-PLAY. And it stinks, IMHO. Thankfully, we don't play by those rules here on the OGF.
Look... I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. We're all adults here, and we all choose the platforms in which we want to participate. I'm just laying out real facts and a real scenario of the machinations that have gone on there over the years. And you can make your own decisions where to play. I'm sure many of us here have our own experiences as well. And some of us have more than one. LOL!!!!
Hey... If both platforms work for you, I'm happy for ya. I really am. But please don't tell those of us here who've chosen to move on from there, that everything would have been just fine-and-dandy if we only had taken the time to read their TOS. Because guess what? We DID read their TOS. What we weren't good at, however, was having the patience to be mind-readers on shifting sands.... or playing by rules that were enforced for some people but not others. Capiche?
Enough said. NOW I'm signing off this thread.
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Post by RFCTrainGarden on Oct 27, 2021 2:32:49 GMT
Also, the reference to a possible monthly charge was to be for new members. TRAIN on! I'm on forums for classic Camaros, college football, Volkswagens, Audis, classic safety razors, tobacco pipes, and probably half a dozen other topics. Though a few have membership fees (college football because they also have reporters on staff) or an optional contribution level, none have a forced charge for only some members and not others that takes a group of users and divides them into two classes of members. It's a ridiculous concept. And none wanted a photo of my mail to "confirm" who I am, in spite of the fact that the car forums have for sale pages with items that cost more than most anything posted on our various forums. I've bought rare wheels that cost $5-6k on them and not had an admin claiming I lied about my address. What the admins over there claim just rings hollow.
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Post by josef on Oct 27, 2021 12:29:32 GMT
Many of us have here have had some bad encounters with management over there and left for various reason. Many also still have relationships with no problems and avoid conflicts knowing the end results, so stay silent. For myself it was a personal problem when I disagreed with a recommendation on a certain person to do upgrades on an engine after he did the job for me using repaired salvaged boards and not the system I wanted, ERR. Also paid for sound to be installed in the "B" unit (speaker), which wasn't done. I was never told that ER system boards weren't installed till complete failure in less then 6 months later when I took shell off and seen board and also newly solder components installed. Then when I inquired why, it became my fault because I wanted it done as soon as possible, yet never told ERR boards not used, was lied to that they were not available at the time. Yet previously told me he had them already. So, long story short, I posted what he had cheated me and wouldn't, couldn't recommend him. Post pulled and suspended. Received E-Mail asking me to return. Less then a year later, this same person was being praised for his work. LOL, I stepped in with a post negative to how he had cheated and lied to me and took my money and would not re-do his work with system I paid for. Instead of deleting just my post, they deleted it all. Haven't been back since. That's my story and sticking to it. I normally stay out of controversial discussions, (some may have noticed). They sometimes hurt the wrong people, and sometimes themselves. But this has been boiling up for years. So nuff said. If I offended anyone here with this post, I apologize.
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Post by JDaddy on Oct 27, 2021 16:39:10 GMT
"Hey... If both platforms work for you, I'm happy for ya. I really am. But please don't tell those of us here who've chosen to move on from there, that everything would have been just fine-and-dandy if we only had taken the time to read their TOS. Because guess what? We DID read their TOS. What we weren't good at, however, was having the patience to be mind-readers on shifting sands.... or playing by rules that were enforced for some people but not others. Capiche?"
Very good point here. The transition to a commercial forum was the spark. I am sure the current members in turn will have their day in the spot light and it will end in the same way... only a matter of time.
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