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Post by harborbelt70 on Dec 20, 2020 11:39:48 GMT
Maybe it’s because I don’t have a complicated setup (when I’m lucky a large around the room oval with a couple of sidings) but I have run DCS and Legacy together for years without issues just from having both. The DCS issues I have had are specific to it and mainly hardware-caused: two TIUs that have failed and related ‘“engine not found” gremlins.
I recently discovered that I have a total of three spare DCS remotes as well as a WiFi module I have not tried yet, all this being a hedge against the possible loss or severe limitation of these parts and tech support. Trying to be objective, there have been suggestions from LIONEL ITSELF (Howard Hitchcock) in recent years that they might not be able to go on making Legacy hardware like the CAB-2 because the components are antiquated and becoming difficult to source. (I suspect that having sold thousands of these over many years now Lionel doesn’t like the prospect of providing service well into the future.) That will be a bad day if/when it ever comes but I’d be more confident of someone stepping into the breach to provide replacements than with MTH.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 14:22:26 GMT
My experience with early DCS was not favorable so I passed on the equipment to someone with more interest, time and enthusiasm than myself. I do buy the occasional MTH rolling stock and have one PS3 loco, which is a shelf queen at present. The main problem with MTH disappearing is, of course, the lack of competition which promotes innovation and price restraint. And for those invested in the line, the realization that innovation and new products no longer are on the cards. I don't think many people will be giving up the hobby, but there will be some, I'd guess.
If MTH continues in another form, it's unlikely to be the robust and voluminous product line it once was, simply because the economics of the hobby have changed over the last couple of decades, and not for the better. Contraction rather than expansion. Thus, it's unrealistic to expect an MTH successor to produce 100-200 page catalogues any time soon. Likewise, without a robust product line, it's unlikely that DCS will survive as a vibrant product line. More like holding the line than expanding and innovating. Those who are still interested in new products and innovation might want to start investigating LionChief 2.0+ and Legacy to see whether those hold any interest down the road. These are the only product lines that are going to be developed and refined is my best guess.
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Post by g3750 on Dec 20, 2020 16:35:23 GMT
'diesel:
There's nothing sensationalized about my post. Everything I said is true and supported by the facts, and I stand by it. If you wish to interpret it as "sensationalized", well that's your right.
That said, I am extremely pleased that some of you have had success running DCS. I mean that sincerely. I wish that had happened to me. Unfortunately, that has not been my experience, nor the experience of many, many users. And their problems, for the most part, have not been "user error". That is a myth perpetuated by one of the late, lamented "DCS champions". What he said is really a case of adding insult to injury, in my opinion.
As for the future of the product, I don't see one. Without locomotive products in which to install DCS, I don't see it surviving standalone on upgrades and repairs.
Best,
George
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 17:43:14 GMT
George we went with DCS because we were not satisfied with Lionel's service and new product releases for N and W/NS. If we wanted MTH, it was either DCS or replace boards in 8-10 engines. It was a big decision because we were 100% Lionel, wanted specific MTH engines, and DCS was obviously a lot more trouble.
For us DCS worked out but I, like you, do not think DCS will survive unless someone continues to produce DCS controlled equipment. We have one layer of track installed out of three and a large number of turnouts that require relays and TIUs to operate with a remote. We are reviewing options and are looking at a major expense or reliance on DCS which we have questions about.
Difficult decision to make.
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Post by Traindiesel! on Dec 20, 2020 19:47:03 GMT
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Post by bluelinec4 on Dec 20, 2020 19:59:56 GMT
Tell you the truth we had more trouble getting TMCC to work than we did with DCS Dale Manquen came to the club and measured signal for TMCC all over the place The first TMCC Signal amp he made came to us Made a big difference
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Post by g3750 on Dec 20, 2020 20:03:52 GMT
Oh George, you Penguin fans. How’d they get into the NHL anyway?!    Ah, about the same time as the Flyers, as I recall. That was 1967, about 53 years ago. Hmm, 1968 was the last time the Flyers won the Stanley Cup - their second and last time. The Penguins, flightless birds that they are, have won the coveted trophy 5 times. The most recent victory being 2017 (part of their second back-to-back sequence).
I'm just sayin'...
A Merry Christmas to you Brian! May Santa bring you a hockey team worth cheering for.
George
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Post by g3750 on Dec 20, 2020 20:06:31 GMT
Tell you the truth we had more trouble getting TMCC to work than we did with DCS Dale Manquen came to the club and measured signal for TMCC all over the place The first TMCC Signal amp he made came to us Made a big difference I recall. But Ben, you guys have the building that Ghostbusters II was based on, right? The one that has gates to a parallel dimension? 
How is Gozur, by the way? Did you ever get all that marshmellow cleaned up?
George
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 20:23:14 GMT
If DCS wasn't reliable it would have bit the dust a long time ago. And nobody would be taking over the product as a business. It couldn't be simpler to hook up. A bus wire from the TIU from each output and connect feeder wires from the track to the bus. Been working perfectly for me since 2004 when I first invested in DCS. As with most problems with model trains, it's usually operator error.
Brian I am not going to get into how well DCS works as I don’t know. For us it does okay but has been a pain to work with, certainly not like Legacy’s hook up a wire and run and yes, you do have to provide drops to the track as you go.
We used Barry’s book and wired accordingly. It required a lot of wiring and we ran separate wires to each block. Steve Nelson told us that we could go 2-3 times further between blocks than Barry specified which helped a great deal. We ran only one wire and dropped no feeder wires.
Did you simply run a bus and drop feeder wires to the track as you went (which is how I envision Legacy working) and isn’t it far easier than the MTH solution? We never meddled with lightbulbs.
Thanks for your help. I apologize for possibly messing up the thread.
Bill
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Post by Yellowstone Special on Dec 20, 2020 20:28:40 GMT
If MTH continues in another form, it's unlikely to be the robust and voluminous product line it once was, simply because the economics of the hobby have changed over the last couple of decades, and not for the better. Contraction rather than expansion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 21:32:13 GMT
Over the last 10 years, staff from both Lionel and MTH have stated that the market is shrinking. Not drastically, but perceptibly. This is why you've seen very few newly tooled locos and rolling stock from MTH. Lionel has focused on developing their sets and LionChief, for which there is a good holiday market, apparently. And that has enabled them to tool new high end locos, unlike MTH, because of that reasonably solid base of set sales, I'd guess. It hasn't been a disaster, but it is in contrast to the growth that was seen in the 1990s and early 2000s. It's also one reason Atlas hasn't developed much new recent products, compared with their steady output of HO and N scale rolling stock and locomotives. I think there are lots of people still interested in three rail, but many of the big purchasers who are now in their 60s, 70s and 80s, have cut back simply because of lack of space, satisfaction with what they have and an embarrassment of riches, perhaps . I know that's been my experience. Buying much less the last 5-10 years than during the 20 years before that. I think the hobby is reasonably healthy, just not as large as it once was, and the lack of growth is the same thing, business-wise, as shrinkage. |
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Post by rtraincollector on Dec 20, 2020 21:42:08 GMT
To me ( and what do I know ) some of the factor that hurt the market was going to Built to Order. I for one refuse to order something and have to wait for months ( if not years ) for it to finally be made. I rather be able to order it today and get it in a week or so. ( If I can't go to a hobby shop and look at it to buy it. ) I also feel this is what hurt a lot of hobby shops. MTH, Lionel, & Atlas among others all went to this, and they actually put the local hobby shop out of business doing so. slowly but surely.
How many people would go to a car dealership and order a car that you can't get for months and then not 100% sure you will get it how it is shown to you. How many have order trains and completely dissatisfied with it when it finally comes in. Either in workmanship or not how it looked in the catalog you where show.
Quality control is a big issue I keep hearing, and it don't make sense to me, but the same ones will go back and order something else. Because they have to have the newest item.
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Post by josef on Dec 20, 2020 22:44:22 GMT
How many people would go to a car dealership and order a car that you can't get for months and then not 100% sure you will get it how it is shown to you. How many have order trains and completely dissatisfied with it when it finally comes in. Either in workmanship or not how it looked in the catalog you where show.
Not to change the subject, but that's how your new car was made. You checked out the models a dealer had, usually low end, low cost models. You then picked colors for both exterior and interior. Engine, transmission, and any extras to add to the vehicle, white sidewalls, back-up lights, console, AM/FM radio, and yes even seat belts were an option one time. You put down a deposit and Dealer would then tell you up to 6 weeks for your new car to arrive, but you had it in usually 4 to 5 weeks. As to BTO, I would never consider since with all the quality control problems, and not 6 weeks wait, rather sometimes years, or maybe even not enough orders, cancelled. A new car nowadays is more exciting then waiting for a re-hashed engine or one size fits all rolling stock. But there maybe hope for "O" scale, like many of us that started or were in other scales, as we grew older, "O" scale filled the niche of handling, and working on a larger model then the small engines and rolling stock as our eyesight became weaker. I have hope and believe "O" will be around a long time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 23:05:24 GMT
If MTH continues in another form, it's unlikely to be the robust and voluminous product line it once was, simply because the economics of the hobby have changed over the last couple of decades, and not for the better. Contraction rather than expansion. Flee, the sky is falling, the end of O gauge in sight, everyone switch to HO 
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Post by rtraincollector on Dec 21, 2020 0:07:47 GMT
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