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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 0:38:36 GMT
Gary, I had to vote for Lionel as we don't have any MTH Engines. From what I have been told Lionel is a much more user friendly system. Legacy sounds really are fantastic! But, who knows what the Train Future holds.
Gary.
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Post by Spice7 on Apr 9, 2020 0:48:41 GMT
I am a MTH guy even though I have Lionel TMCC. No Legacy but I have it at the club. Gary's comments are point on but I just like The DCS.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Apr 9, 2020 4:13:44 GMT
Programming is certainly more intuitive with Lionel Legacy. But Gary's comparison hits the salient pro's/con's for both systems. One thing I will say is this... when running BOTH Legacy and DCS TOGETHER, they do tend to step on each other at times. Dare I say neither is truly "ready for prime time" in that environment -- regardless of what the marketing literature says. And that's after 2+ years of running them together. When shutting everything down and powering everything back up again solves the issue(s)... you just know one system stepped on the other. So beware of gremlins lurking in the firmware.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 9, 2020 10:52:03 GMT
Legacy is clearly the more popular product. But it really depends on what you value in train operation and for me it’s operating features. As Lionel won’t let Legacy be available for 3rd Rail and Atlas, which is a pity but understandable, their products suffer slightly in terms of (my) play value.
There’s a guy out west, Bruk Bannister, who has done Legacy upgrades on Lionel TMCC steamers and the results are amazing but depend on having an engine the Legacy feature set compliments. He uses Lionel parts for this. Not something I would try. Besides, some TMCC sound sets are unique to the engines (TMCC AC-12 for example) and actually better than what Lionel has made for Legacy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 11:44:53 GMT
It's sad neither side went with DCC. All these issues would be for not. You can get MTH 2 rail engines with DCC, same with 3rdrail and Atlas.
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Post by Adam on Apr 9, 2020 12:38:11 GMT
Based on my limited knowledge and research I agree. DCC seems to be the open standard and the standard for other gauges (HO has embraced it from what I can tell).
I don’t understand why we don’t have a standard in O.
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Post by Country Joe on Apr 9, 2020 13:52:25 GMT
Based on my limited knowledge and research I agree. DCC seems to be the open standard and the standard for other gauges (HO has embraced it from what I can tell). I don’t understand why we don’t have a standard in O. Lionel has always been about Lionel. They are only interested in promoting their products so creating a proprietary system locks the hobbyist into buying from Lionel. There has been bad blood between Lionel and MTH almost from the beginning of MTH. They had a short honeymoon period before their falling out so it makes sense that MTH tried to out do Lionel by creating their own system that was capable of exclusively running their own engines but could run TMCC engines as well. I think O gauge has always had this "Buy exclusively from us" attitude.
The NMRA has been a big influence in the 2 rail scale world and an advocate for compatibility of products from different manufacturers. Plus, when Lenz invented DCC he made it available to all manufacturers. Lionel would never do such a thing. Lionel did eventually make TMCC available to other manufacturers but Legacy is proprietary.
I don't know about Lionel but MTH's PS2 and PS3 are DCC compatible.
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jlong
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Post by jlong on Apr 12, 2020 22:46:32 GMT
DCS is just as proprietary today as it was when first introduced and according to Legacy developers, it prevented Lionel from designing Legacy to access DCS functions.
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Post by rthomps on Apr 20, 2020 8:48:35 GMT
"They are only interested in promoting their products so creating a proprietary system locks the hobbyist into buying from Lionel.
Certainly incorrect. MTH was the company that made the O Gauge World non-standard.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 14:47:44 GMT
Programming is certainly more intuitive with Lionel Legacy. But Gary's comparison hits the salient pro's/con's for both systems. One thing I will say is this... when running BOTH Legacy and DCS TOGETHER, they do tend to step on each other at times. Dare I say neither is truly "ready for prime time" in that environment -- regardless of what the marketing literature says. And that's after 2+ years of running them together. When shutting everything down and powering everything back up again solves the issue(s)... you just know one system stepped on the other. So beware of gremlins lurking in the firmware. Some or a lot, depending on what you have on your layout. Lionel engines will interfere with the DCS signal. Any mods/upgrades I do get a the 30 uH choke between the pickup rollers and the electronics. I haven't messed with Legacy engines due to warranties and haven't tried them with DCS engines on the same track at the same time anyway. So I don't know if it's still an issue with newer offerings, it is with older TMCC, TAS, and ERR electronics. Plus and constant lighting boards for cabooses or passenger cars also get the Choke.
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jlong
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Post by jlong on Apr 20, 2020 15:40:09 GMT
"They are only interested in promoting their products so creating a proprietary system locks the hobbyist into buying from Lionel. Certainly incorrect. MTH was the company that made the O Gauge World non-standard. There is a lot of truth to that. In the beginning, Lionel made TMCC an open standard like DCC allowing cottage industries such as TAS, IC Controls and ERR to offer TMCC components. This includes allowing DCS to access TMCC functions. MTH on the other hand chose to make DCS proprietary. Apart from functions that are exclusive to Legacy, TMCC is an open standard to this day. Otherwise we would not have ERR by 3rd Rail.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 16:37:25 GMT
"They are only interested in promoting their products so creating a proprietary system locks the hobbyist into buying from Lionel. Certainly incorrect. MTH was the company that made the O Gauge World non-standard. There is a lot of truth to that. In the beginning, Lionel made TMCC an open standard like DCC allowing cottage industries such as TAS, IC Controls and ERR to offer TMCC components. This includes allowing DCS to access TMCC functions. MTH on the other hand chose to make DCS proprietary. Apart from functions that are exclusive to Legacy, TMCC is an open standard to this day. Otherwise we would not have ERR by 3rd Rail. It's good thing MTH can't play that game with the other scales. G, and HO. They would never have been accepted if they weren't DCC compatible.
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Post by Country Joe on Apr 20, 2020 17:23:16 GMT
All MTH is DCC compatible, even O gauge.
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Post by keithl on Apr 20, 2020 21:37:17 GMT
"They are only interested in promoting their products so creating a proprietary system locks the hobbyist into buying from Lionel. Certainly incorrect. MTH was the company that made the O Gauge World non-standard. There is a lot of truth to that. In the beginning, Lionel made TMCC an open standard like DCC allowing cottage industries such as TAS, IC Controls and ERR to offer TMCC components. Digital Dynamics was also there early on, offering TMCC/RailSounds components for converting Lionel and other manufacturers' locomotives to command control.This includes allowing DCS to access TMCC functions. Also, in 2000, Lionel made TMCC/RailSounds available for OEM license by other train manufacturers. K-Line, Atlas, Weaver, 3rd Rail, and Pecos River Brass all incorporated TMCC into their products. Apart from MTH, which was well into developing DCS, only Williams declined to adopt TMCC because they decided to remain conventional only. More recently, when Lionel developed LCS, they created a partner program to allow outside parties to develop apps to interface with Legacy/LCS via either WiFi or direct control. MTH, on the other hand chose to make DCS proprietary. Apart from functions that are exclusive to Legacy, TMCC is an open standard to this day. Otherwise we would not have ERR by 3rd Rail. Lionel engineers actually worked with MTH to make it possible for MTH's DCS premium app to control the full suite of Legacy features.It's hard to see how all this can be construed as creating a propriety system to lock the hobbyist into buying from Lionel. To the contrary, what more could a company do to make its technology available to its entire industry? MTH, on the other hand, choose to create a proprietary system and to keep it that way. They obviously believe that works best for them, and that's a reasonable business decision.
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Post by stoshu on Apr 20, 2020 21:49:13 GMT
For me, I'm 110% satisfied with MTH and voted accordingly. Its easy for me to set an engine on track without setting a program switch, etc. It finds the engine and it's in the system. I can latch-up engines easier. I have legacy also, but look to MTH for varies reasons, one being cost. I've had less problems with MTH engines then Lionel and have always had no problem getting someone on the phone at MTH to walk me through a problem. Can't say same for Lionel. Also had a missing horn on an mTH engine within a week received 2 replacements. Bought a legacy engine new several years back that had a missing bell. Lionel was out of stock but would be sending one as soon as available, still waiting, (though I purchased a replacement through a parts place recommended that was an exact fix).
I agree josef, I'll add that cruse control comes with the entire line ( premier and rail king ) I have grades to cruse control is a must for me. I also like the center rial for track signals. the Lionel radio signal can be finicky......
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