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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 7, 2020 17:38:56 GMT
.... Families come in and look around. Kids are begging for the parents to buy a train until they see the price. .... I can't imagine young families trying to get into the hobby these days. It's gotta be challenging. I just received an email with Charlie Ro's "after Christmas" sale. The starter sets ranged from $250-$350, which isn't too bad. But HERE's what really caused me to raise an eye-brow or two... Remember those Lionel station platforms that once sold for $8-$12??? Well there were two models in the sale flyer -- both now selling "on sale" for just under $40. These things are basically junk pieces of plastic that I can easily toss the length of a football field. I can just imagine somebody (i.e., who's getting serious in the hobby) trying to model a big station and needing 8 or 10 (or more) of these to straddle the station tracks... and bam!!! You've just set yourself back $300-$400 -- for simple pieces of plastic. Look... I get the fact that trains have always been a hobby for the not-too-faint-of-heart. And we need to part with our hard-earned money as we seriously undertake the creation of our miniature worlds of wonderment. But does anybody else feel we're reaching (or have already reached) the point where prices are absolutely ridiculous for what's being purchased? Really... there's just no "thud factor" to what we're buying these days. And those cheaply made station platforms selling for $40 seem to be the epitome of what I'm talking about in terms of products that parents might consider buying for their child's first layout. $10 seems more appropriate for something that probably costs Lionel $1 to have made in Chinese sweat shops. But $40? Who's kidding whom here? And how much pure overhead is built into that kind of pricing premium? From a raw percentage perspective, there's admittedly more "profit" in those stinkin' station platforms than there is in a $500 Legacy diesel locomotive. Unbelievable.
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Post by josef on Jan 7, 2020 22:24:31 GMT
I'm glad I started when I did. If I started today and saw not just the price of rolling stock and engines, but what is needed for a layout and system to run it, I would be having second thoughts, seriously. You mention the station platform, there are so many things I also see overpriced, Lionel scale Telephone poles, many of the plastic building structures by both Lionel and MTH.
I don't see any hype on Lionel's upcoming catalog as there once was either.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 0:22:54 GMT
One thing seems to be unsaid... what is the effect of advancing ago on the hobby from a dollars and cents viewpoint. It should be fairly easy for management consultants to determine the direction in which the hobby is headed and to come up with some reasonable $$$ estimates. I also expect that they can determine other useful information that would assist vendors in their planning.
A lot has been said that are positive or negative factors and should be able to be modeled. Based upon the behavior of the vendors which seems to be all over the place, I have to wonder if they have done their homework. They certainly do not appear to be consistent in their actions.
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Post by Adam on Jan 8, 2020 0:29:34 GMT
Certainly for many people it would be tough to buy their way in with new products.
But truly there are affordable ways to do it. I know because I am utilizing many of them. Hand-me-downs, buying used or even buying new with a budget conscious is very doable. I see it this way, if people can put down hundreds on the latest smart phone or tablet, they can certainly spend a few hundred on trains if the motivation is strong enough. Yes, it is critical to keep the manufacturers afloat so that we can progress, but newbies can absolutely get started in a more economical fashion.
Not saying it's easy, but if the interest is there, there are ways.
At the end of the day, as stewards of this wonderful hobby, it is our job to share it with the next generations. From what i have read on this forum, I suspect everyone does that and jumps at the chance to share their passion. That might be the spark that someone needs to one day jump in. That's what happened for me. My uncle had a wonderful layout and I never forgot it. That small spark stayed with me all of these years and i finally jumped in with both feet ~3 years ago.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 8, 2020 1:44:35 GMT
.... I don't see any hype on Lionel's upcoming catalog as there once was either. With the new catalog just 2 weeks away from yesterday, there's been very little to talk about -- no Lionel "previews" that I can recall seeing. And it will be interesting to see if Lionel ships printed copies of the catalog to dealers in advance of 1/20. They did that for the last two or three catalogs, and enterprising young souls seeking their 15 seconds of YouTube fame posted videos of themselves paging through the catalog before the official release date. Regarding the catalog... I forgot there IS one thing I'd be curious to see if Lionel offers, and that is the remaining cars of their Freedom Train. Personally, I'm not a big fan of entire trains that take YEARS to be delivered -- especially now that the overseas factory landscape is so volatile. Heck, Lionel is having enough trouble getting basic paint colors correct at all -- let alone trying to match paint colors across multiple factories who assemble trains over several years. Stratospheric pricing notwithstanding, I'd much prefer to see importers offer an entire train in one catalog, like Lionel just did with its O-Gauge PreWar Scale State Set. Beautiful job too. But as we speak, I wanna say Lionel's Freedom Train has taken a 2+ year hiatus from the catalog. And Lionel STILL hasn't offered an observation car (among others). So right now, peeps with Lionel's Freedom Train have gone at least 2 years w/o a complete train. Not my idea of having "fun" with trains that we purchase. Atlas-O took this approach to extremes with its California Zephyr offering... taking over 7 years to deliver the complete train. And then what did they do for those of us who waited out those 7+ years to build a full train? They made a "special" offering of the complete train available!!! Nice way to thank those who stuck by them buying cars one or two per year for all that time. Gotta wonder some days....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 2:13:21 GMT
Wonder what color will the business train be? Isn’t it ridiculous to even entertain such a question, much less have it be serious? Hey Bill, you're obviously referring to the passenger cars. It doesn't matter to us if Lionel paints them flaming red. We don't purchase their passenger cars anyway. Over priced and too many problems. Not to mention silver paint instead of a nice chrome like finish like MTH. Gary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 2:55:31 GMT
The price of model trains is ridiculously high today. No matter how you cut it they are toys. So many variables come into play. The least of which is not greed. If the market will bear it the price will continue to rise. There is no cheap hobby anymore. Here are a few examples that we have to endure up here. We own a fully rigged tournament bass boat,(2012 Ranger Comanche Z521c), our price for this boat was $64,000.00 back then. Replacement cost today is approximately $125,000.00. Hell of a jump. That does include the 30% difference in our dollars. A fully jammed Ford Lariat 4x4 pickup is $67,000.00+ sticker price. The average home price in the city of Ottawa $441,800.00 in November,2019. Not a very large home either. I guess it all depends on what you want to spend your money on. Most of the people after a certain age that I know have their houses paid off, money in the bank and no real debt to speak of and are able to indulge in hobbies and still live quite comfortably whether both spouses have pensions from their employers or have created their own retirement savings funds. Our kids stay at home longer now because most seem to work two part time jobs because there isn't enough full time jobs anymore. They no longer look at staying in one place for 30yrs. or longer. They go where the money is. Again this has more to do with company greed by eliminating full time positions in the last 5-10 yrs to create a better return for stockholders. There are more small businesses today than ever due to business and personal write offs. Let's face it we have become lazy and would rather pay someone else to do it. The Baby Boomer generation in North America has created and generated more money than any generation in any given time. Manufacturers and marketing experts have known this for many , many years. Hence the cost of a Legacy engine being $500.00+ today. We will piss and moan but we will still buy. mainly because it is a want, not a need. We have created our own demons.
Gary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 5:33:46 GMT
Young people not working full time, comfortable older with disposable income. Yep, sounds like us to some extent.
When the old are no longer here, the pension ceases. I don’t see the young with the same benefits or homes as large with space for trains or things paid off or the disposable income or buying O gauge trains. And for all of us that time draws closer each day.
I agree with Adam. There are plenty of good deals on quality used trains that have lasted for 30+ years and continue to please. I am not sure that the younger generation realizes the bargains that exist. Maybe us old guys need to find a way to show them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 11:16:00 GMT
I have a feeling the new catalog will definitely get some attention from outside our hobby. There may be some items in there that will cross the train hobby into other genres. There may be some items that will force me to do something I vowed not to do and that is pre-order. I am surprised by the lack of hype considering the release is scheduled less than 2 weeks from now. Once release there will be some things to talk about for sure.
The hobby is strong but not where it needs to be. The younger folks. Although I will say we sold a lot of Lionel sets at the shop. Not so may MTH sets. The WiFi is scaring parents IMO and the Lionel remote puts them at ease even though in many cases the MTH sets are a better value. I think MTH might have jumped the gun eliminating it's simple remote in sets.
I also think that it is the job of the current hobbyist to keep it going. I do what I can to promote the hobby.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 12:18:11 GMT
I have a feeling the new catalog will definitely get some attention from outside our hobby. There may be some items in there that will cross the train hobby into other genres. There may be some items that will force me to do something I vowed not to do and that is pre-order. I am surprised by the lack of hype considering the release is scheduled less than 2 weeks from now. Once release there will be some things to talk about for sure. The hobby is strong but not where it needs to be. The younger folks. Although I will say we sold a lot of Lionel sets at the shop. Not so may MTH sets. The WiFi is scaring parents IMO and the Lionel remote puts them at ease even though in many cases the MTH sets are a better value. I think MTH might have jumped the gun eliminating it's simple remote in sets. I also thing that it is the job of the current hobbyist to keep it going. I do what I can to promote the hobby. Marty....keep your vow. When something catches your eye wait until it comes into the shop. Check it out and if it is as advertised, purchase and enjoy. You are in a unique position. Let us know if something is done the way it should be. Scared parents, sometimes, reliability issues, yes. Now, we have WiFi. Our information/entertainment systems have been running on WiFi since last August. Major connectivity issues with two high end smart tv's. I was able to get one up and running but the service provider had to come and install extenders,(4), and the house is not that big. Both tv's ended up being hard wired to their to the supplied tv boxes. Those in turn get their signal from a wireless modem/router. Problem solved. The only other issue that we and everybody else will have is when there is an interruption in the WiFi signal. It is still my opinion that hard wired and remotes are more reliable at this time. When the Lionel remotes go the way of the MTH remotes, and they will, hopefully WiFi will be more reliable. Gary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 12:22:42 GMT
The pre-order, if it happens, will be low end without a large risk. I won't pre-order any high end stuff again until they get their ducks in a row.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 9, 2020 3:14:51 GMT
I have a feeling the new catalog will definitely get some attention from outside our hobby. .... Once release there will be some things to talk about for sure. .... Sounds like hobby shops have either received advanced copies OR Lionel has sent them digital sales kits so dealers can be ready to take pre-orders directly from their websites on Jan 20th. So I guess it begs the question I alluded to earlier... namely will an aspiring YouTube enthusiast blow the cover as they have in the past 2 or 3 catalogs? Quite honestly, short of an extremely limited exclusive "special-run" must-have offering, the only other thing I'd be tempted to pre-order is a re-issued product like those VisionLine Ethanol Tankers w/FreightSounds (6-27410) that folks have been clamoring for for over 10 years. The original 3-pack was priced at $270 MSRP, but eBay sales of new still-Mint VisionLine tankers often pushes the $550-$600 mark. So if nothing else, a re-issued set of those VisionLine tankers would crash the secondary market in a well-deserved way. AND Lionel would sell every set they made. With that kind of frenzy in mind, folks (including myself) would pre-order rather than be "left out" on those gems. We shall see.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 4:22:36 GMT
There’s only one thing I want to see in this catalog and that is MILK
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 9:48:31 GMT
There’s only one thing I want to see in this catalog and that is MILK Alas, alas.. all too often, what you see is not what you get.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 10:56:44 GMT
I have a feeling the new catalog will definitely get some attention from outside our hobby. .... Once release there will be some things to talk about for sure. .... Sounds like hobby shops have either received advanced copies OR Lionel has sent them digital sales kits so dealers can be ready to take pre-orders directly from their websites on Jan 20th. So I guess it begs the question I alluded to earlier... namely will an aspiring YouTube enthusiast blow the cover as they have in the past 2 or 3 catalogs? Quite honestly, short of an extremely limited exclusive "special-run" must-have offering, the only other thing I'd be tempted to pre-order is a re-issued product like those VisionLine Ethanol Tankers w/FreightSounds (6-27410) that folks have been clamoring for for over 10 years. The original 3-pack was priced at $270 MSRP, but eBay sales of new still-Mint VisionLine tankers often pushes the $550-$600 mark. So if nothing else, a re-issued set of those VisionLine tankers would crash the secondary market in a well-deserved way. AND Lionel would sell every set they made. With that kind of frenzy in mind, folks (including myself) would pre-order rather than be "left out" on those gems. We shall see..... As far as I know the shop I help at has not received their catalogs or even the list but there was a rumor of a new license that they might have procured that was the root of my guess. Like all of you I won't know for sure until release day as my LHS owner usually is tight lipped up until the last minute. I just hope the rumor is true. There does seem to be a lot of vision line offerings from a post on the OGR forum by Charlie Nassau.
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