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Post by harborbelt70 on May 8, 2023 17:05:04 GMT
I'm more than a little stumped and frustrated by this so I thought I'd launch this question out there and see if anybody has an idea.
I have an A-A pair of Legacy E9s issued in 2020, both powered. The lead unit has stopped recognising the Legacy signal as it did when new. Here's the odd thing: with the body shell on, it will start up in conventional; with the shell off or loosely covering the frame it usually detects the signal and waits for a command, which it will answer. With the shell screwed back on it reverts to starting up in conventional. But if I put my hand over it with the shell attached - one of the usual ground plane detection methods - it responds as it should while my hand is there. The other A unit works as it should. What gives?
I've noticed that when it is acting up, the headlight of this unit starts flickering which is another symptom of a signal issue. But I don't see this on any other Legacy engine.
I actually have a spare RCMC board for this engine but swapping it out would be no short exercise - I have never worked on these boards before. I wondered if the receiver on the stock unit has failed but that would not account for it getting the signal in the odd circumstances I have mentioned.
Any ideas anybody?
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Post by ptc2 on May 8, 2023 19:57:00 GMT
Could it be a grounding issue, Andy?
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Post by josef on May 8, 2023 20:25:24 GMT
Your running this AA conventional or Legacy? Check the switch.
With shell tightened down, is it maybe pinching wire(s). Check your antenna wire not loose. Also check your pick-up rollers and wheels are clean. Believe it or not had to clean both with alcohol and electronic cleaner one time from a long sitting engine that drove me crazy why it only started up when I pushed slightly down.
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Post by harborbelt70 on May 8, 2023 21:32:13 GMT
Thanks both. It's mighty funny that (1) it's only this unit that's affected and (2) the transformer and Legacy base are plugged directly into the same grounded outlet they always have been. I have had a ground plane issue before, with the wildly flickering headlight, but basically only with Lionel's new-fangled all-in-one Legacy RCMCs with the radio receiver soldered to the board so it can't be replaced/serviced separately.
I am going to try an experiment to see whether the problem persists - you can run a ground wire from one of the pins on the CAB2 base's computer connection (I think it's called an RS-32) to try to boost the radio signal from it, but it means having a wire alongside the track, which is not an option for the whole loop. However if it works it means that there is a ground issue somewhere in the household circuit.
I'll also clean the track, wheels and center rollers as Walter mentioned as I have been a little lax about that. P.S. Yes, this is only run via Legacy - when I say it starts up in conventional I mean the engine is not getting the Legacy signal and so starts up as though I was using only the transformer levers.
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Post by Adam on May 8, 2023 21:58:47 GMT
I had a similar issue with an MTH engine that, with the shell on, would just fail to start up. I discovered that there was a strange short at the smoke unit. There was a gasket between the top ajd bottom of the unit that had deteriorated. The shell somehow shorted the engine with that gasket basically missing. Once I replaced the gasket, the problem went away. I actually discovered this by mistake. I was poking at the problem and had unplugged the smoke unit and forgot to reconnect it before putting the engine back together. And voila, it worked.
Probably not the same issue, but might give you something else to look into.
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Post by Adam on May 8, 2023 22:01:10 GMT
I had a similar issue with an MTH engine that, with the shell on, would just fail to start up. I discovered that there was a strange short at the smoke unit. There was a gasket between the top ajd bottom of the unit that had deteriorated. The shell somehow shorted the engine with that gasket basically missing. Once I replaced the gasket, the problem went away. I actually discovered this by mistake. I was poking at the problem and had unplugged the smoke unit and forgot to reconnect it before putting the engine back together. And voila, it worked. Probably not the same issue, but might give you something else to look into. Forgot to mention that the shell in my case was diecast, MTH Challenger, so the metal in the shell shorted the smoke unit to the rest of the engine somehow.
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Post by JKP on May 8, 2023 22:40:36 GMT
I had one of my MP FA ALCOs AA units do that, it was the board. I had a recent issue with one of my SD70s, stopping suddenly and not responding to legacy replaced the board, wasn't it, was track power issue. Replacing the board is a hassle , take pictures of the connectors ,I use a marker to mark some of them to make it easier to install new board. Does the engine respond to bluetooth control.
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Post by harborbelt70 on May 8, 2023 22:43:24 GMT
Forgot to mention that the shell in my case was diecast, MTH Challenger, so the metal in the shell shorted the smoke unit to the rest of the engine somehow.
With this engine all the body components and even the smoke unit bowl are plastic. But in my case it got worse as today the transformer shorted and cut out for some reason but it and the engine were unaffected . . . for better or worse.
P.S. I ran these engine out of the box using Bluetooth and it worked then, have not tried it since but it's another idea I will try.
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Post by Adam on May 8, 2023 22:59:13 GMT
Very interesting. Following this thread for sure.
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Post by curtis on May 8, 2023 23:08:13 GMT
Sounds like the antenna is not getting ground. Make sure no wires are pinched or pulled tight when shell is on.
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Post by david1 on May 9, 2023 4:06:03 GMT
I have had an issue was when I powered up the layout this one engine engine will not start up. Could not figure out the problem but when I shut down the layout and turn it back on everything was fine. Still not sure why it did it but it has happened on several engines. It don't happen all the time but it does every so often.
Btw all my engines are tmcc and legacy and it seems to to only the legacy engines.
After I switch the power off/on it may not happen again for weeks or months, must be a legacy signal but I cannot find any reason for it.
Dave
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Post by harborbelt70 on May 9, 2023 20:01:10 GMT
Well, I have run out of time (and energy) to continue trying to get this solved, but this has symptoms of the dreaded Lionel ground plane issue or a board or CAB2 failure. When I can stomach it, and if I have to, I'll contact Lionel for advice/parts. So far here are the results:
1. Cleaned wheels track and pickup rollers with a proprietary (Bachmann) track cleaner. After this the engine seemed to roll more easily when pushed by hand although I could be imagining that.
2. Got a good quality electrical socket tester to see if the circuit I am using is properly grounded. The test says it is but that tells me nothing about signal strength.
3. Reading around the so-called ground plane problem (and definitely not for the first time), I see that a solution some people have found is to attach a long wire to a nearby metal basement plumbing pipe and drape it anywhere near the layout. Being a condo dweller I don't have the very great blessing of a basement and no exposed pipes at any convenient distance.
4. Another solution, which probably works in the same way, is to run a grounded 3-prong extension cable WITHOUT a surge protector plugged in and placed adjoining the track. This DID make a difference as the engine did not start up immediately power was applied to the track. BUT read on.
The engine is still not answering basic CAB2 commands (like the reverse and horn controls) consistently. This might be an issue with the remote (?) but I doubt it. I put the other (rear) A unit on the track and it runs fine by itself. However the forward A unit has shown the main drive cab blinks a couple of times, both on its own and when coupled to the rear unit. I think this points to a board issue. However the headlight blinking on the forward unit has stopped - go figure.
I have to say that this is the sort of thing that prompts me to consider running HO for a while - I have some Marklin 3rail stuff that is completely reliable. What is called the TMCC/Legacy "ground plane" issue (although I am told that term is technically inaccurate) is a system hazard on Lionel's version of command control; I won't bore you with why.
To be continued when I can bear it, possibly after I have tried this on a different layout/another CAB2. Am I a complete sap to hope that the new CAB3 will be better in this department?
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Post by david1 on May 10, 2023 2:35:34 GMT
There is no cab 3 but a app to work the base 3. Hope it all works out for you.
Dave
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Post by harborbelt70 on May 10, 2023 8:52:34 GMT
There is no cab 3 but a app to work the base 3. Hope it all works out for you. Dave
My next port of call is probably Lionel itself and we'll see what happens or not.
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