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Post by david1 on Jan 13, 2023 6:31:22 GMT
Read several forums and the consensus is that the prices are way too high. Many others thought it was a nice catalog for everyone. Many others were saying what they may order and it seems that the Dreyfus and the Decopods seem to be the one everyone who is ordering will buy. One surprising thing was that only a few wanted the new big boy. Nobody mentioned the big boy set but of course in such a small sample I read it may mean nothing or a indication of how far the they feel about the $4000.00 price.
Very interesting reading and thoughts. Will The pricing hurt pre-orders? The top tier of the models being offered is not aimed at most of us. Its aimed at people who can afford these items at any price. That is who Lionel is aiming this to. Lets hope they are right because if not the business of making trains may be in jeopardy.
Dave
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Post by jdekan on Jan 13, 2023 8:20:51 GMT
I definitely agree on prices being to high and wish they were easier on the wallet. It hasn't been as much of a shock to me I think because I'm mostly newer being active in the hobby for myself and started seeing everything as it was already high in price. I went in thinking that the big boys would be north of $3000, so I was somewhat relieved at them being under, not that the price point doesn't still bother me to some degree. Really just my point of view. Big boys are what really got me into trains in the first place, so I knew I always had to have one, and have been nervous about buying used because i don't know what kind of condition they would be in and I'd like to have most of the features available on the newest models. Still debating it pretty hard but I'm sure my soft spot for them and it being the one I want most is going to drive me to get this one and have the piece on mind to not feel like I'm gonna miss out on getting the chance again when I want it. I think getting my first pre order experience is pushing me toward doing it also.
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Post by dlagrua on Jan 13, 2023 15:11:22 GMT
I've got the means to buy expensive stuff but am very pleased with the low cost equipment that does the job. Lionel seems to be directing their product line towards a very small segment of the affluent train collector market. Prices will continue to rise sharply until sales drop off and that point may not be far off. The demographics of those that buy their trains are not in their favor. The good news is that if you attend trains shows and buy online there is a very wide selection of used, new and NOS trains to be had at reasonable prices. The hobby is still affordable.
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Post by rtraincollector on Jan 13, 2023 15:16:34 GMT
I haven't looked at a catalog in 5 years, knowing everything is more expensive than I wish to pay. Even the boxcars are more than I'm willing to pay for a boxcar.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 13, 2023 15:58:45 GMT
By and large, Lionel has gotta know that they're competing with themselves given these uncertain times and insane prices. I'll go out on a limb here and wager that a good number of guys Lionel is targeting with its catalogs fall into two basic categories:
Potential buyers already have more than enough trains than they'll EVER be able to truly enjoy, OR
Many still have a healthy number of 2022 pre-orders whose deliveries are carrying over into 2023. So they're already in the red so to speak before they even open Lionel's new 2023 catalog. Cases in point include Lionel's brass hybrid steamer, regular production and special-run Berkshire steamers, as well as a bunch of special-run offerings by both Lionel and MTH dealers. Depending on one's buying habits, someone could easily have in excess of $3,000 worth of product announced in 2022 that's yet to be delivered. Perhaps even north of $5K!!!
At some point, even the best of Lionel's customers are gonna decide it's prudent to step off the treadmill. Sure... one can argue that we have MONTHS to "save up" for goodies in the 2023 catalog(s). So just pre-order now... and pay the piper later. But that philosophy only works when folks are comfortable with EVERYTHING else around them. And that's simply not the case these days for a growing number of consumers. If you do the grocery shopping in your family or pay the utility bills for your home, then you know what I'm talking about.
We shall see. It's not our job to keep Lionel in business. That's their job. But I wouldn't feel too comfortable as a dealer or importer hearing that die-hard enthusiasts like myself are stepping aside and watching 2023 from the sidelines until the economic dust settles. Heck, I've already re-thought my very short list of items I listed as likely purchases in the Lionel 2023 Catalog thread. The North Pole Central "Sleigh Bell Limited" Christmas train that looks fabulous is gonna set buyers back roughly $2K for the whole enchilada. That's just not something I wanna really do these days. And those AC&W passenger cars? Maybe I don't need a full-dome coach after all. And I'll settle for just the 2-pack with a StationSounds diner. That and 3 Wings of Angels boxcars might be all that's coming way from this catalog. This coming from a guy who often bought something from every other page in the catalog years and years ago.  Times and attitudes are definitely a changin'.
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Post by Sir James on Jan 13, 2023 16:44:48 GMT
I think the BB has reached a saturation point. But they still sell so I guess not. I like the smaller road engines.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 13, 2023 16:55:12 GMT
After reading Rockymountaineer's (David's) post above I thought a bit more about exactly on what customer profile Lionel is basing its current price and production ideas.
I agree that there must be a segment of the 3rail hobby that is undeterred by steep catalog MSRP prices - but the reality is that no informed buyer pays such prices because bigger dealers will discount them. The average pre-order discount from such dealers I have seen this time around is 20% and more. This makes me wonder what is driving Lionel's policy, now some years old, of overstated or inflated catalog prices - other than possibly they are trying to condition the deep pocket end of the market to engine prices over $1,000 and sometimes a multiple of that sum.
Frankly, I don't see that most Lionel products are worth what they cost these days, even if discounted, because of assembly/QC/service issues.
But the title of this thread is about reading other forums' catalog threads. On OGR, even before the catalog was issued, there were 23 pages of posts consisting of what people were wishing for and speculating about what would be in the catalog. That tells you that there's a significant level of interest in Lionel's new products at least among the minority of 3rail hobbyists who participate in Forums. As in the recent past, I expect there will be a similarly huge number of posts about what people intend to buy from the catalog.
I am not in the same bracket/company as all of these people posting their wishes and buying intentions but clearly there are a lot of willing buyers out there.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 13, 2023 18:31:15 GMT
HB, I don’t doubt Lionel will find buyers. It’s just that in large part, buyers are forced to be selective in their purchases. And we all have thresholds based on current rosters and disposable incomes.
Back in the day, many of us here might recall Tony Lash would buy nearly everything MTH made. Perhaps even 2 of each item!!! And he was a great down-to-earth guy too, who often hosted open houses at his cool layout in the HQ office of his waste management company outside of DC.
Honestly, I don’t know that even a fella like Tony Lash would want to buy everything Lionel makes today. Pricing dynamics have just changed so dramatically. So now guys who bought PALLETS of train products years ago might now just buy a few goodies that easily fit in the back of their SUV.
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Post by Charlie on Jan 15, 2023 0:34:23 GMT
First, I am still reading the other forum but post less and less due to all incorrect information or "opinions stated as fact". I always wondered how Lionel ended up with the group of people running that place when such a large pool of experts could be found on the on-line forums.. who would probably work for free?
Second, regarding the specific comment about the Big Boy (which I do not own, nor own a un-streamlined Hudson for that matter), my local Hobby shop, America Best in Itasca, Illinois has taken a fairly large number of Bigboy pre-orders. I say fairly because I feel they are now a small dealer compared to RO, Muffins, Train World etc. I really don't know the numbers, but the owner mentioned openly that it always surprises him how many people have the money or interest in the new engines.
What really surprises me about the other forum is how many people look at the catalog art and think 1, it is the photo of the real production item or 2, think the catalog art is the final rendition of the item with absolutely no room for corrections, like the recent Class A, (or paint errors as it may be in recent years). Its just catalog art folks, if you really need a production image of the item you are pre-ordering, than you are ordering at the wrong time. You need to wait for the actual item to arrive and hope it is what you wanted. No other way to guarantee you will get what you want.
Harborbelt70 said it above, but there is still a large group of people who are interested in what, Lionel in this case, has to offer in the new catalog. Maybe some of us are just not interested anymore and that is ok. Looking at the wishlist thread Harbotbelt references above, it is clear we are a very difficult group to please, just browse that thread and see how widely different peoples "wants" are. Can any manufacture really get concrete marketing direction from a thread like that? I think not.
In the meantime, I will keep reading the forums with a big BS filter close at hand. Every once in a while I do pick-up a nugget of useful information.
Charlie
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 15, 2023 1:39:53 GMT
Regarding what Charlie has said above, trust in the supplier's ability to deliver what they are advertising weighs heavily in the decision whether or not to commit to a pre-order, which is now the standard for whether something gets made or not. This is where, as far as I am concerned - although subject to the last point I make below - Lionel is falling short, and maybe because for many products they have opted for the cheapest available Far Eastern manufacturers.
I think that the prime example of someone who deserves trust is Scott Mann. If you want one of his 3rd Rail or GGD products, you have to pre-order it. If he gets enough orders, you'll see 3D drawings of the product and production samples before it ships but by that stage you are committed. Still, the fact that this info is provided inspires confidence and you can trust that he'll stand behind his product. I say this from experience of dealing with him.
I do think that the Lionel videos on product development - "Demos with Dave" in particular - are extremely useful in giving info on what Lionel itself is doing about product design and checking whether something actually works. Unfortunately, the fact remains that such products turn up showing serious factory assembly issues, and sometimes equally serious software/control problems. Not sure what the answer to this as enforcing QC in foreign factories is a known problem.
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Post by dennym57 on Jan 15, 2023 2:57:13 GMT
I'll leave the hobby before I pay their prices.
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Post by madockawando on Jan 15, 2023 15:41:23 GMT
I been back in the hobby for about 7 years now and every Lionel catalog brings out the same hue and cry: "Lionel's prices are too high!" Yet, Lionel is still here and doing fine. Yes, prices have gone up just like the price of everything else. The trains Lionel are offering are certainly more advanced now as compared to few years ago. As for prices, I buy from Atlas, Lionel and MTH and I don't see enough of a price difference as compared to Lionel to justify the level of hand wringing twice a year we must endure when the catalog comes out. If I like it and it's in a road name I like, I buy it. If I can't afford it then I don't buy it and I don't get too stressed about it. Or maybe I plan ahead and set aside some money so I can buy it. Ask around, there are dealers who will let you pay on an install plan if you ask. In the meantime, enjoy the catalog!
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Post by bobthetrainguy on Jan 15, 2023 20:41:44 GMT
As for prices, I buy from Atlas, Lionel and MTH and I don't see enough of a price difference as compared to Lionel to justify the level of hand wringing twice a year we must endure when the catalog comes out. If I like it and it's in a road name I like, I buy it. If I can't afford it then I don't buy it and I don't get too stressed about it. Or maybe I plan ahead and set aside some money so I can buy it. I don’t have a problem with prices. What I have is a problem paying *any* price for the decreasing level of quality that Lionel offers. Does anyone have an original Vision Line Big Boy that they’ve actually ran, and the depleting coal load still works? The gear boxes in the PRR K4s and H10s self destruct. And the other assembly and QC problems are too numerous to list. The Acela was an unmitigated disaster. Finally, they can’t get a paint shade right to save their lives.
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Post by bobthetrainguy on Jan 15, 2023 20:45:55 GMT
But the title of this thread is about reading other forums' catalog threads. On OGR, even before the catalog was issued, there were 23 pages of posts consisting of what people were wishing for and speculating about what would be in the catalog. That tells you that there's a significant level of interest in Lionel's new products at least among the minority of 3rail hobbyists who participate in Forums. That thread has gone on through several catalogs and years. A lot of the “wishes” are by one or two people who seem to track everything not made yet by Lionel in a few specific road names. Unless they are Daddy Warbucks, i don’t think the interest is quite as high as you are inferring from the thread’s length.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Jan 15, 2023 21:09:22 GMT
I been back in the hobby for about 7 years now and every Lionel catalog brings out the same hue and cry: "Lionel's prices are too high!" Yet, Lionel is still here and doing fine. Yes, prices have gone up just like the price of everything else. The trains Lionel are offering are certainly more advanced now as compared to few years ago. As for prices, I buy from Atlas, Lionel and MTH and I don't see enough of a price difference as compared to Lionel to justify the level of hand wringing twice a year we must endure when the catalog comes out. ... With all due respect, different folks see the market differently. And that's fine. Once or twice a year, it's good to look at the marketplace and analyze observations and trends. And I would suggest that it's not always the same hue and cry about prices. If it seems that way, than you're missing the point. I don't say the things I say with the expectation that Lionel will change their prices... nor do I provide some pricing analysis in an attempt to influence anyone's buying habits. In fact, I don't care what folks might or might not buy... nor how they spend their money. That's their business to enjoy the hobby the way they want to.
However, that's not to say it isn't healthy to "remind" importers that we -- as enthusiastic hobbyists -- demand quality products for our hard-earned dollars. For example, there's no way to defend Lionel's recent Black River & Western passenger coach debacle. Nor is there any defense when overseas factories miss the mark on color as often as they have in recent years. These are often expensive BTO products that need a pre-order commitment SIGHT UNSEEN. That wasn't the case years and decades ago when prices were more realistic.
Then there's the trend that is nothing short of price-gouging, when tooling from one importer (typically MTH) is purchased by another importer (typically Lionel or Atlas)... and the resulting new prices are instantly and obscenely higher than those of the former owner. Lots of examples of this recently. But the worst offenders are the new Lionel 64' wood coach passenger cars and the new Lionel bobber cabooses that are now orders of magnitude higher than exact same product offerings under the MTH brand.
Naturally, some moderators and most fanboys are quick to call this out as "bashing"... when nothing could be further from the truth. More to the point, buyers are spending premium dollars now. And in neither of the cases noted above is their any bashing going on -- simply objective observations of fact. Along with these observations, we also don't hesitate to call out the good with the bad to balance the analysis... much like Lionel's recent Class A steam locomotive as well as the dynamite job done with the recently delivered Aberdeen Carolina & Western F9 AB units whose color is off-the-chart spot-on.
Bottom line... prices are an integral part of the buying decision today. And if you don't believe that, you're not being honest with yourself. O-Gauge trains has ALWAYS been a hobby for those blessed with varying degrees of disposable incomes. But I think it's safe to conclude that today's prices are pushing the envelope into a territory, where even the most die-hard enthusiasts are thinking twice about buying everything that they see. We all have our limits, and we all enjoy the hobby in different ways at different points along the journey.
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Times and attitudes are definitely a changin'.
