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Post by david1 on Oct 21, 2022 11:04:47 GMT
Enough of the Polar express and the stupid pick of the big boy. How many of these can you make? The VL was supposed to be something special, to me it looks like LIONEL is running out of ideas.
Dave
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Post by ptc on Oct 21, 2022 13:22:07 GMT
"I understand the complaints, but at the same time, it's hard to imagine any other engine being able to draw interest at the inevitably high price point VL engines command right now. I get why they decided to run it again. Who in the world is in any mood to drop that kind of money on trains right now?"
How about NEW TOOLING and an ALL NEW never been done in O-Gauge engine. Pushing out constant re-do's is not leadership.
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Post by northstar on Oct 21, 2022 15:52:56 GMT
"I understand the complaints, but at the same time, it's hard to imagine any other engine being able to draw interest at the inevitably high price point VL engines command right now. I get why they decided to run it again. Who in the world is in any mood to drop that kind of money on trains right now?"
How about NEW TOOLING and an ALL NEW never been done in O-Gauge engine. Pushing out constant re-do's is not leadership. I completely agree. However, with a recession looming and people sending so much more on necessities, this is not the year. They are going to have a hard time filling orders for any VL locomotive they would've released right now. And with new tooling, the price would've been astronomical. Last year would've been the year to do it when people were flush with cash.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 21, 2022 16:04:13 GMT
Lionel's new motto... when in doubt, announce another Big Boy!!!
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 21, 2022 20:45:18 GMT
OTOH, if Lionel insists on “re-running” a VL offering…. why not re-run the original 3-pack of Ethanol tankers w/Freightsounds? The demand is certainly there, and Lionel could sell all they could make.
But that would make too much sense! So yet another big-ticket Big Boy it is. 🙄
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 22, 2022 1:11:10 GMT
FWIW, I just skimmed through the Trainworld "virtual York video" for today, where Ken Jr. interviewed the Lionel folks about new announcements and soon-to-arrive items from earlier catalogs.
Ryan explained the cycle of Vision Line offerings as follows: plan on newly tooled offerings every OTHER year, and then the in-between year would likely have a re-issue of an earlier offering with a new feature or two added. So consider 2023 as an "in-between" year with the Big Boy being re-issued... this time with new -- but certainly not "must have" features -- like the 4-digit addressing using the upcoming Legacy BASE3/CAB3 App, multiple whistles, and elephant ears on some of the SKU's.
The Lionel team demo'd an early production release of the 2023 Big Boy already, and they mentioned arrival should be March 2023.
As an aside, they also mentioned THIS year's 2022 Vision Line Class A is now "on the water" with an anticipated ship-date to dealers in mid-November... which is consistent with the Charles Ro website showing some of the Class A SKU's having a Nov 10 arrival date. Possible some folks might see these before Thanksgiving... but conservatively speaking, definitely in time for Santa's sleigh.
From a sales strategy, I guess I understand the Big Boy announcement by Lionel. And it's different from days gone by. Years ago, Lionel produced a catalog small enough that serious enthusiasts who were financially blessed could buy LOTS of items in the catalog if they wanted to. Whereas today, that's pretty much impossible for all but the infinitely wealthy. That being said, Lionel seems content to have smaller production runs with higher pricing and high profit margins -- whereby "enough" enthusiasts who might have missed an earlier production run of a given locomotive now have the opportunity to buy it (or a similarly featured model) this time around. And from the looks/sounds of some of the viewer comments Ken Jr was echoing to Ryan and Dave, the new Big Boy announcement is a hit.
So for those of us thinking of Vision Line from its roots back in the day of Dick Kuhn's JLC locomotives and Jerry Calabrese's first Vision Line locomotives, this new Big Boy doesn't cut the mustard. But Lionel has tweaked its VL strategy a bit for folks who might have missed an earlier VL release. And that's the intent of this Big Boy "re-issue". At least that's the marketing spin Lionel is using nowadays.
P.S. I didn't watch the video "live", or I would have asked about a re-issue of the VisionLine Tankers w/FreightSounds -- especially given Lionel's newest spin that they wanna give enthusiasts the option of buying earlier VisionLine products that they might have missed. So we'll need to save that question for another day.
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Post by curtis on Oct 22, 2022 13:44:36 GMT
Well said rocky mountaineer!
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Post by ptc on Oct 22, 2022 13:50:23 GMT
You would think that a priority would be to release a brand engine annually. Every-other-year, not so robust is a sales plan. It looks like are scaling back all over the place.
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Post by dennym57 on Oct 22, 2022 13:53:53 GMT
I don't care what Lionel does. They don't make anything I like that runs on 0-36 curves.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Oct 22, 2022 14:01:18 GMT
I can just about see the sense of Lionel's stated policy as reported by David but don't buy that this is the whole story. My thinking is that management is being kept on a very short leash by owners trying to extract the maximum from "recycling" tooling. I grant that they may not see enough return on investment to produce new tooling every year.
I wouldn't want to be running Lionel's business in such circumstances.
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Post by josef on Oct 22, 2022 16:00:51 GMT
I don't care what Lionel does. They don't make anything I like that runs on 0-36 curves. Your not alone on that. I would say those I know around here and back in Illinois, their largest radius is 48" some slightly bigger but would never be able to handle most. I saw most had based their radiuses on early K Lines which had many engines, large, that would look good on these radiuses, none I know would start a new layout, age and cost. Myself I have a 72" outsider, but even the Big Boy doesn't look good when I run it rarely with still that overhang. But the K Line Hudson looks and operates better then Lionels offerings of these.
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Post by Country Joe on Oct 24, 2022 19:09:25 GMT
I don't care what Lionel does. They don't make anything I like that runs on 0-36 curves. I agree Denny. I also have O36 curves and most of the scale stuff won't run on my layout. Besides, Lionel is priced way above what I'm willing to pay for toy trains. I used to love Lionel but they don't make much that I'm interested in and will run on my layout. MTH's Railking line will run on O31 curves, is better sized than traditional Lionel, and includes better features at a better price so I've become an MTH guy.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Oct 24, 2022 20:50:37 GMT
I don't care what Lionel does. They don't make anything I like that runs on 0-36 curves. I agree Denny. I also have O36 curves and most of the scale stuff won't run on my layout. Besides, Lionel is priced way above what I'm willing to pay for toy trains. I used to love Lionel but they don't make much that I'm interested in and will run on my layout. MTH's Railking line will run on O31 curves, is better sized than traditional Lionel, and includes better features at a better price so I've become an MTH guy. Yeah, as far as I know the price for this VL Big Boy has not been announced and maybe Lionel is afraid to say? (I know they aren't but maybe they should be.) The engine is of no interest to me anyway but most of Lionel's pricing strikes me as ridiculous and was before the current supply chain issues.
The only thing positive I can say is that for certain engines, like the Legacy Veranda, the street prices were not out of line with normal inflation compared with the original issues of these models, and there was some innovation (smoke, sound, lighting) even if the tooling was not new. But that isn't the case across the board with Lionel Legacy engines, including VL models.
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Post by david1 on Oct 24, 2022 23:05:57 GMT
I always liked Lionel engines for many years but the prices for many of the engines being made the last five years or so is absurd. Ill have some of my older Lionel engines but because of Lionels mistakes, quality control and pricing I have dug out some of my older Williams trains and decided to use them. They are conventional but they look great, run smooth, quiet and built like tanks. They ran so good I decided to buy a few more at York. Also they are easy to work on, no electronics, no command systems and rock solid build quality. For those that run all the new electronic marvels, I wish you the best and most of all have fun.
Dave
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Post by josef on Oct 25, 2022 13:08:59 GMT
One thing I find amusing from seeing Big Boys for sale on E Bay and on Facebook, how many are unopened. It seems that some buyers treat toy trains as investments only and the price they are asking. There was a time when Baseball cards were a trend in investing, and new manufacturers jumped in, flooding the market and eventually the downfall for many that had put big money into them. Same from several decades ago when Radio, cereal, and other premiums were going for sky high prices, but there are so few that remember Little Orphan Annie, Tom Mix, etc. and now these are going for pennies on the dollar if even ever sold on E Bay. Be it Lionel, MTH, K Line, etc. they are toy trains meant to be enjoyed and run on layouts, carpet layouts, or under a Christmas Tree. Someday, be it the original buyer or one that bought and paid a premium price to acquire will wake up and find that their investments are not that and time to unwrap and enjoy what they were meant to be. I buy only what will fit my layout, the era, and what I enjoy playing with. I have no really safe queens, nor any item that hasn't been unwrapped and played with.
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