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Post by curtis on Oct 21, 2024 5:02:52 GMT
I have noticed some things.
1. People here think Allentown is better and bigger. My observation ( as I have been to both) is I don't think so. The comment of you can't move at Allentown there are so many people does not hold true. If you took the six or seven buildings that people are spread out in at York and put them in the same size building as at Allentown You will be outside in line.
2. All the big names aren't staying at York. Again we don't know the complete story for Charles Rio, Train World, Lionel and some others, BUT we do know that Atlas, MTH, Nicholas Smith and some others had stopped but are back. Just trains was bigger this year in October than in April as were a couple other dealers.
3. York and our hobby is mostly OLD people (Excuse me as I am 70 and consider myself in that category). NOT TRUE AT ALL!! There were a large number of YOUNGER people at York in April and even more in October.
4. In short Bah Humbug on the You Tubers. They are seeking personal glorification on their channels to make money. Hmmm A BIG NO! Let me expand on this one.
I attended the You Tuber Event at York and have spoken with a large number of them several times at the past York's. This years October event had some interesting discussions. Questions were presented to them that had been collected over the past two months on some of their channels. They are the SAME questions being asked here. Is the hobby dying, How do we attract more people, What is the best track, What about Blunami, What about a standard operating system, Etc.. You would be amazed at how in tune they are with the hobby and how they really are trying to promote the hobby not make money!
It was mentioned that the shirts being sold at the event were being used to promote the hobby. How? (This is something I was unaware of so pay attention). The new owner of the Choo Choo Barn has a not for profit foundation. The Choo Choo Barn Foundation. They, along with Chris's Trains and Things (he is an educator that works on curriculum) are working on getting curriculum in the local Lancaster school system to interest Younger Children. Did you see the Choo Choo Barn Mobile train layout truck. Really cool. A box truck (Green) with full side and rear windows. Impressive!
One more thing I want to Rant on. Atlantic Division of the TCA. I had a couple questions and had left a message. They called me back and I basically had to listen to a poor us story of how they have no members and are shrinking drastically. Only 3 or 4 people are doing all the work, etc etc etc. I made the comment that I attended a show at Penns Landing when they were there and was not impressed. I got the riot act and then got hung up on. HMM Do you think I want to help or belong to that organization now? I would love to volunteer but am not close or have the time. Hence I do my best to being supportive by staying a member. Well If the leaders are only going to cry boo woo and not try to be positive instead of demeaning They can close their doors now. Why am I saying this here? Because I hear US doing the same thing sometimes. If we are not excited about the hobby when talking with people, why would they want to get involved? The answer is not get your friends and people to enter the hobby , It is GET EXCITED and SHOW that excitement. THAT makes people say what's going on that makes that person so excited and compassionate!
Just a few observations I noticed this time at York.
As for me, I had a new member on here (John) whom I have been helping and got him on here, not only join here but attended York with his wife. Let me tell you he is EXCITED!! Told me he told his wife it is my fault that he is so excited. WOW talk about a wake up announcement. Hence I now realize what I need to do. BE EXCITED More!!!
Okay You can pile on me now. I can take it and still like ya. I just love this forum and the people.
Oh one more thing. Evidently my wife (who does all my scenery work and is also into the hobby and loves York) was sitting eating lunch (I was at the You Tuber event) and was with a group talking about OGF. I did not see anyone from the OGF all day Friday. She ask who is Brian? I knew instantly it was TRAINDIESEL! Sorry I missed all of you especially him. I always enjoy his and David1 Company and conversations.
Curtis
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Post by david1 on Oct 21, 2024 6:26:59 GMT
I really missed going to York this past week. Had my badge and everything but my chemo kept me away. I will be at Allentown and the April York, I hope.
I agree with the points you made about York and the YouTubers, I watch and respond to most of them. We should all be glad they are part of this great hobby.
As far as the Eastern division goes for far too many years they have been slow to make changes.
I have seen so many videos of the York show I almost feel like I was there. If the TCA and the ED should use them as advertisements. Just thinking outside the box so to speak. Anything to get more people to attend.
Other locations have delt with tax liability if the TCA/ED would open the show for everyone. Maybe its time.
Dave
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Post by superwarp1 on Oct 21, 2024 11:17:04 GMT
I have noticed some things.
2. All the big names aren't staying at York. Again we don't know the complete story for Charles Rio, Train World, Lionel and some others, BUT we do know that Atlas, MTH, Nicholas Smith and some others had stopped but are back. Just trains was bigger this year in October than in April as were a couple other dealers.
Curtis
We do know because I've talked to CharlesRo, Jr who took over from his dad, doesn't like shows, doesn't like the time involved, doesn't like the money involved, has a life outside of the business. I'd bet it's the same for the other dealers. As for Lionel while rumors are lots, the one get heard the most is they had a falling out with the Eastern division.
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Post by BobS2056 on Oct 21, 2024 12:26:16 GMT
I always like other peoples thoughts and ideas on this subject.
Bob
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Post by rockymountaineer on Oct 21, 2024 12:54:51 GMT
I have noticed some things.
1. People here think Allentown is better and bigger. My observation ( as I have been to both) is I don't think so. The comment of you can't move at Allentown there are so many people does not hold true. If you took the six or seven buildings that people are spread out in at York and put them in the same size building as at Allentown You will be outside in line.
… Okay You can pile on me now. I can take it and still like ya. I just love this forum and the people.
Just to clarify…. Nobody here EVER said Allentown is bigger or better than York. Of course, York has more buildings and people are spread out more. The overall attendance numbers reflect that as well. Duh… The points I often make about York now are mostly related to the Orange Hall, because that’s pretty much the only hall I visit in recent years, as my time in York is limited to just a few hours on Thursday. Although one year, I stayed late on Thursday after the member halls closed at 5pm… and sure enough, there was a surge in crowd size in the Orange Hall. To be expected. And I noted that in my post. So if you’re gonna reflect on observations that other folks have made, please keep the context intact. Dang!!! I love this forum too… but I’m always amazed when folks tend to run with a different narrative than was ever intended. I guess that’s human nature though. And we try to take it in stride, as best as we can. Is Allentown ATMA bigger than York? Of course not. Is it better? THAT’s debatable and largely subjective — as it should be. For a growing number of enthusiasts, Allentown can be more convenient. So it meets their needs enough to be an all-out replacement for York. Although I’d be hard-pressed to say anything replaces the “York experience”. But I’ve sold at Allentown regularly since a few years before Covid hit. So I’ll stand by every comment I’ve posted about CROWDS in the aisle at both venues. I’d venture we’d need to go as far back to the York heydays of the 1990’s and early 2000’s, in order to find crowds in the Orange Hall that had the “shoulder-to-shoulder” feeling at any time of the day. Thankfully, the trend is improving at York post-Covid. And there was no evidence this past October of no-shows or empty tables in the Orange Hall. That’s never a good look. And quite often, the line to get into Agriculture Hall on Saturday morning wraps around one or two sides of the building before doors open at 8am for early ticket-holders — even on a cold February “Spring Thaw” morning. Onward… |
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Post by healey36 on Oct 21, 2024 14:25:09 GMT
"Just to clarify…. Nobody here EVER said Allentown is bigger or better than York."
Uh, no, I think quite a few people here HAVE said that.
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Post by dlagrua on Oct 21, 2024 14:59:36 GMT
"Just to clarify…. Nobody here EVER said Allentown is bigger or better than York."Uh, no, I think quite a few people here HAVE said that. I can't point to anyone that claimed that the Allentown ATMA is bigger than York. It isn't. ATMA is based in two halls. York has five. Attendance at York is quite a bit larger but slowly decreasing. York attendance is claimed to be about 8,000-9.000 but anyone who has the number posted by the ED please put it up. ATMA claims an attendance of 5,000 which may be on the high side but every time I have been there the aisles were extremely crowded so much so that it was hard to move.
My opinion on this is that ATMA is more convenient to many hobbyists; closer to the metropolitan areas, with an easier shorter drive that proves less expensive. Overnight accommodations are not usually needed by most and the short day drive attracts a different audience. I've found prices to be much better there and when I often do not find anything to buy my trunk comes home full of food purchased at the huge Farmers Market on the fairground across the way. While not making the comment that either show is better, ATMA suits my needs better and its a far less expensive day.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Oct 21, 2024 15:07:32 GMT
IMO both York and Allentown are good barometers of the state of the O scale train hobby. If you cannot get to one by all means try to get to the other. If one venue is addressed as better than the other, it likely speaks to the needs wants of the person expressing their subjective opinion rather than an empirical fact. Think of it as the train show version of the movie 'Honey I Shrunk the Kids'
York is a bigger footprint and Allentown is more crowded because it is in a single smaller building. I have found each event equally suited for my collection needs at a given time but thankfully not typically at the same time!
Is one show better than the other? It depends on the perspective of the person giving their opinion; buyer or seller. I have left both York and Allentown with only the items that I prepaid and arranged to pick up. At other times, I could barely see out of my 4 Runner at York or ATMA (except the windshield of course!).
Rockymountaineer has experienced excellent sales results at Allentown. There were a lot of very happy sellers at York last week.
York seems to be making a run at a rebound attendance wise, while Allentown just keeps chugging along consistently.
Let's just call it a tie, and enjoy both if you can.
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Post by trainman9 on Oct 21, 2024 15:15:26 GMT
I would say that York this October had about the same attendance as in the past few years. No problems finding a parking space on either day. The lot across from the Orange hall was only about 50% full on Thursday and pretty much the same on Friday. We were there on Saturday and it was a ghost town at 9:00 AM when we got there.
I go to see my friends from the old AOL days but their numbers are shrinking.
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Post by david1 on Oct 21, 2024 16:14:57 GMT
I really missed going to York this past week. Had my badge and everything but my chemo kept me away. I will be at Allentown and the April York, I hope.
I agree with the points you made about York and the YouTubers, I watch and respond to most of them. We should all be glad they are part of this great hobby.
As far as the Eastern division goes for far too many years they have been slow to make changes.
I have seen so many videos of the York show I almost feel like I was there. If the TCA and the ED should use them as advertisements. Just thinking outside the box so to speak. Anything to get more people to attend.
Other locations have delt with tax liability if the TCA/ED would open the show for everyone. Maybe its time.
Dave
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Post by runamuckchuck on Oct 22, 2024 0:18:10 GMT
I would say that York this October had about the same attendance as in the past few years. No problems finding a parking space on either day. The lot across from the Orange hall was only about 50% full on Thursday and pretty much the same on Friday. We were there on Saturday and it was a ghost town at 9:00 AM when we got there.
I go to see my friends from the old AOL days but their numbers are shrinking. Sorry to be a contrarian, but I have to disagree with your assessment of attendance based upon the parking situation.. Upon entering the fairgrounds Thursday morning at 11:15 AM from the south , there were noticeably more RVs and misc. vehicles in the area between the Orange and Silver/Blue Halls than in April/October of 2023. The parking lot in front of the Orange Hall was full from the North end of the hall to the extreme south end of the area bordered by the RV parking 5-6 rows deep far more than in April or even October of last year. Parking was readily available the closer that you got to the grandstand. On Friday late morning parking spots were available but the parking areas around and contiguous to the halls were noticeably more full by a significant margin than they were on Thursday and the previous 2023 editions. Could I find a close in parking spot, yes but you had to look. Grass areas heretofore vacant were filled with cars. Saturday is likely correct based upon the unfortunate power outage of the previous day coupled with what I observed as very brisk selling in most of the member halls. There is no doubt in my mind that there were substantially more attendees compared to 2023 either in April or October based upon my experience and observations.
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Post by david1 on Oct 22, 2024 2:10:34 GMT
I have attended both York 40 years and Allentown more Years then I can remember and if anybody ever said Allentown is bigger than York, THEY ARE WRONG, PERIOD!!!
Both are great, you can find more trains at York than any place else. Allentown, I see dealers that most likely don't attend York plus Rocky Mountain Dave attends with some great buys! Check him out.
END OF RANT,
Dave
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Post by superwarp1 on Oct 22, 2024 11:35:26 GMT
I'll tell you what's bigger than York. Amherst train show is bigger in square footage but it's all scales. York is the biggest O gauge show on the planet.
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Post by trainman9 on Oct 22, 2024 18:02:09 GMT
I would say that York this October had about the same attendance as in the past few years. No problems finding a parking space on either day. The lot across from the Orange hall was only about 50% full on Thursday and pretty much the same on Friday. We were there on Saturday and it was a ghost town at 9:00 AM when we got there.
I go to see my friends from the old AOL days but their numbers are shrinking. Sorry to be a contrarian, but I have to disagree with your assessment of attendance based upon the parking situation.. Upon entering the fairgrounds Thursday morning at 11:15 AM from the south , there were noticeably more RVs and misc. vehicles in the area between the Orange and Silver/Blue Halls than in April/October of 2023. The parking lot in front of the Orange Hall was full from the North end of the hall to the extreme south end of the area bordered by the RV parking 5-6 rows deep far more than in April or even October of last year. Parking was readily available the closer that you got to the grandstand. On Friday late morning parking spots were available but the parking areas around and contiguous to the halls were noticeably more full by a significant margin than they were on Thursday and the previous 2023 editions. Could I find a close in parking spot, yes but you had to look. Grass areas heretofore vacant were filled with cars. Saturday is likely correct based upon the unfortunate power outage of the previous day coupled with what I observed as very brisk selling in most of the member halls. There is no doubt in my mind that there were substantially more attendees compared to 2023 either in April or October based upon my experience and observations. I’ve been attending since 1995 and all I can say it is a far cry from what iI was five or seven years ago. The only manufacturer I saw in the Orange hall was Atlas and they just had a very small booth with just a couple of tables. So, some people may disagree but there were no crowds at the event.
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Post by trainman9 on Oct 22, 2024 18:59:07 GMT
How about using a different criteria. Food. Where was the big BBQ vendor with several picnic tables, where were the funnel cake vendors, where were the numerous food vendors across from the Orange hall. There used to be seven or eight food trucks doing a brisk business . Where were the food vendors outside the White Hall. Gone.
When they all come back then York is back.
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