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Post by runamuckchuck on May 24, 2024 1:16:29 GMT
Ok, let's get this out of the way first; grading is to some degree subjective. Egregious misrepresentations about condition are simply dishonest.
Let's start with Ebay definitions. To observe the vast majority of Ebay train listings many of the listing conditions are represented as 'new'.
Have the sellers actually read the ebay definition of 'new'? Evidently not. How can items clearly out of the box, lacking a box, protective wrapping, or showing evidence of being run be new?
L/N, C-8/7 mint/NM but not new.
Take a look at the Ebay definition of new. On that basis many of the ebay train items so graded are not new.
Ok so I give a pass to widows, and offspring of deceased or downsizing hobbyists for their honest lack of knowledge. Well it looks new.
But how about hobby/train stores/hobbyists who sell and are guilty of the same dare I say optimistic grading. Do those sellers get a pass as well?
A recent purchase on Ebay by a B&M hobby/train store represented an item as LN. Do flea bite missing paint on the roof constitute LN? Mike Wolf may not agree. If the item was not difficult to find I would send it back.
A You Tuber is selling an item which he describes as appearing to be like new condition. Now this is a person who represents himself as an avid hobbyist. Appears to be like new condition? I can get that description from my 13 year old grandson who knows nothing about trains. Is this equivocation to give a seller, any seller wiggle room in the event of a dispute?
Even seasoned/respected collector's grading have to be taken with a grain or shaker of salt. I purchased another freight car at a premium price for a 'new' condition item. When it arrived, both couplers were detached, the body showed some sort of residue on the body and two very visible screws were corroded. New? Not where I come from. Paying F&F on PayPal with a credit card can come in handy sometimes.
Even if you are not a member of TCA, it is easy to access their grading system on line. To just about anyone NIB/Mint/NM/NOS/LN/EX/Good while still subjective has some semblance of consensus as to their meaning.
On another thread JDaddy and I have discussed putting a little vigor into our Buy/Sell marketplace. If that actually occurs in some form, I would hope that all sellers would have to conform to a recognized grading standard that OGF requires each seller to use rather than a hodgepodge of generic terms which leave a lot to be desired.
Oh and I am sorry, pictures are no substitute for an accurate statement of condition, no matter the resolution, or number of photos.
But to sum up my post, allow me to quote W.C. Fields, 'never give a sucker an even break'. It is sort of the mirror image of buyer beware!
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Post by Traindiesel! on May 24, 2024 2:06:25 GMT
Well, it's human nature to hope for a perfect world.
"On another thread JDaddy and I have discussed putting a little vigor into our Buy/Sell marketplace. If that actually occurs in some form, I would hope that all sellers would have to conform to a recognized grading standard that OGF requires each seller to use rather than a hodgepodge of generic terms which leave a lot to be desired."
But, if:
"....let's get this out of the way first; grading is to some degree subjective."
It becomes a vicious circle. Who decides the "standards"? Would everyone agree with them? There's still the issue that even if the "standards" are met, would the buyer agree with the standard descriptions when they receive the item purchased?
So many variables involved. It all comes back to the 'laws' of purchasing anything, especially on the internet. BUYER BEWARE!
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Post by firewood on May 24, 2024 2:18:50 GMT
Ebay grading seems to have a formula based on the number of exclamation points after the words Scarce!!! Rare!!!! or Vintage!!!!!
Dave
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Post by JDaddy on May 24, 2024 2:32:14 GMT
I always judge the product via the photos. If anything is blurred out / missing/ or looks suspicious, I move on. I just save my money for York!
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Post by Joe Saggese on May 24, 2024 2:35:05 GMT
Also "NEW" (not tested) is a dead giveaway.
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Post by JDaddy on May 24, 2024 3:02:33 GMT
Also "NEW" (not tested) is a dead giveaway. Yeah just run from that... especially if its conventional... prewar or postwar...
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Post by david1 on May 24, 2024 4:42:00 GMT
The one thing I see on a regular basis is MTH engines from 2000-2005 with the 5 volt board that is never mentioned or rarely.
Pictures will tell you nothing!! How many are being sold to people who know nothing about the issue of the 5 volt boards.
Unless you can upgrade them stay away from them!!
Dave
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Post by rtraincollector on May 24, 2024 9:55:38 GMT
I wonder how many got the proto-sound (1 if I may use that term or is that 2 I'm not that up on MTH proto sound, I usually avoid it) that knew nothing about having to charge them and got the 3 chimes of death.
Then there was the one I saw a couple of weeks ago listed under Lionel Standard Gauge, you could see through the windows in the box it was all just thrown in there with no inserts and listed as new in box.
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Post by runamuckchuck on May 24, 2024 14:48:49 GMT
Well, it's human nature to hope for a perfect world.
"On another thread JDaddy and I have discussed putting a little vigor into our Buy/Sell marketplace. If that actually occurs in some form, I would hope that all sellers would have to conform to a recognized grading standard that OGF requires each seller to use rather than a hodgepodge of generic terms which leave a lot to be desired."
But, if:
"....let's get this out of the way first; grading is to some degree subjective."
It becomes a vicious circle. Who decides the "standards"? Would everyone agree with them? There's still the issue that even if the "standards" are met, would the buyer agree with the standard descriptions when they receive the item purchased?
So many variables involved. It all comes back to the 'laws' of purchasing anything, especially on the internet. BUYER BEWARE! Sorry I don't know how you only quote portions of messages. As for who decides the standards, why reinvent the wheel? For better or worse TCA seems to be a widely recognized and referred to grading standard. That would be my suggestion for starters. A grading standard is no guarantee especially if the stated condition is not borne out by the photos (the most useful aspect of photos IMO). For instance NIB when the photo is of the item out of the box? However regardless of the grading standards to be used if the seller does not read/understand/ignores the grading definitions photos again provide the first if not red then yellow flag. As a last resort you can always at least on Ebay rely upon their Buyer Protection policy to get your money back. Say what you will about Ebay prices, there is value to the buyer for that protection. How much value depends upon the cost and your desire for the item.
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Post by Traindiesel! on May 24, 2024 17:58:37 GMT
That’s the thing. All the grading standards in the world could be published but it doesn’t matter if neither the seller or buyer adheres to them. Like you said, if someone wants an item bad enough they usually will buy it regardless. And some sellers will always hide any flaws to make a sale.
Buyer beware.
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Post by af3020 on May 24, 2024 18:39:20 GMT
You forgot my favorite - "Excellent condition for its age."  |
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Post by trainman9 on May 24, 2024 19:22:06 GMT
I’ve bought and sold a number of items over the years. I used to be able to go to a local auction house and bid on/pickup items in person to mostly re-sell to support my hobby. Unfortunately with the pandemic they like others have gone internet only.
I made a purchase of a Lionel bar stool at a local auction house and it was described as being in excellent condition. I was the hi-bidder and when I went to pick it up it was rusty, moldy and NOT in excellent condition. I had to prepay and even though the terms are as/is where is. I refused to accept it. I was lucky that I had a photo from the auction site and the owner reluctantly exchanged it for one in much better condition.
Recently, I made a recent purchase of an MTH Tinplate Traditions O Gauge passenger set. The auction site did not have much of a description but from the photos it looked pretty good. Well, I was the successful bidder and when I went to pick up the set I was blown away. The cars were brand NEW. Why did I consider them brand NEW. When I got them home I took one of the cars out of the foam packaging.
It like all the other three cars was wrapped in plastic wrapping, and had a sheet of plastic wrapping protecting the roof of the car from the body and had those little foam strips protection for the couplers. Upon looking at the roller pickups on this car there was not any evidence that the car had ever been run.
Unfortunately, I was unable to run them even though I had gotten an adapter to go from the knuckle coupler to the latch coupler on the cars. I just took one of the cars out and put the adapter on but there was such a difference in height that is was never going to work. So, I reluctantly sold them and will be sending them out to the buyer.
If for any reason the buyer is not satisfied I will pay for return shipping and refund the entire purchase price.
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Post by harborbelt70 on May 24, 2024 20:54:33 GMT
I made a purchase of a Lionel bar stool at a local auction house and it was described as being in excellent condition. I was the hi-bidder and when I went to pick it up it was rusty, moldy and NOT in excellent condition. I had to prepay and even though the terms are as/is where is. I refused to accept it. I was lucky that I had a photo from the auction site and the owner reluctantly exchanged it for one in much better condition.
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Post by runamuckchuck on May 24, 2024 21:19:32 GMT
That’s the thing. All the grading standards in the world could be published but it doesn’t matter if neither the seller or buyer adheres to them. Like you said, if someone wants an item bad enough they usually will buy it regardless. And some sellers will always hide any flaws to make a sale.
Buyer beware. Or from the unscrupulous seller's point of view, per W. C. Fields 'Never give a sucker an even break! Is this what Joni Mitchell was singing about on 'Both Sides Now?'
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Post by david1 on May 24, 2024 23:25:52 GMT
I have bought items from TrainZ for some years now and so far I am very pleased with all purchases. One item that was Doa, they paid for the return and fixed it and sent it back within a week. No problems since.
If your buying early MTH you must know what your getting if made from 2000-20005 it is 5 volt, avoid it.
I only buy older items because I just cannot afford what is being sold today especially from Lionel and MTH. MTH/RK scale are a great buy for new proto3 locomotives!! Not allot of prototypes but what they have is well worth a look!
As far as getting people to be more honest in their selling, descriptions is like finding a honest politician. Most likely will not happen.
What you have to do is know what your buying and holding the seller if it is misrepresented. Also buyers who misrepresent what they got or don't understand what was sold to them.
Here is my list when I decide to buy
Known seller
Friend
Known dealer
Great pictures
At a show like Allentown or York and only from a dealer I know or recommended!!
Always be careful, trust almost no one, have fun,
Dave
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