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Post by david1 on Feb 29, 2024 0:42:25 GMT
With the arrival of of latest catalog from Lionel and the ongoing announcements from Mth and the complaints about costs, delivery, wrong paint colors, quality control and a myriad of other things.
Are we being too harsh on our criticisms of both train makers, are they legitimate? Should we expect more?
Does all the complaints help or hinder Lionel and others?
Do we think they are trying their best?
Are you willing to buy more now? You want to see it before laying out the dollars or will you use the BTO system.
And the number 1 question, do you still trust the companies to build the best product they can and stand behind it!!
Give your thoughts on what is going on in our O gauge train world and what you like and don't like.
Dave
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Post by superwarp1 on Feb 29, 2024 1:21:41 GMT
I have no complaints on what MTH is producing, either price or quality. 400 bucks for a RS1, what would Lionel charge for the same engine?  ?? Now Lionel is a different story. I'll leave pricing alone for a minute so bear with me. First the Mogul run from six years ago. What a cluster !@#$ that was. My Rutland would lock up, get the flashing cab lights, stall out, run rough or what have you. Sent mine in, supposedly they were going back to china to be re-geared or something. Well got it back, ran no better but they changed the railsounds, Again WTF...... Now here's a list of issues others have 1. Gear box issues H10 comes to mine. 2. Wrong color, to many engines to list but the Niagara and others with that God awful grey. NW J class that didn't match the passenger cars, or was it the passenger cars didn't match the J 3. Why does this seem to happen to engines I order but the the B&A Berkshire tooling. Was the tooling held hostage by a manufacture who had a falling out with Lionel or was the tooling dropped or damaged in someway. Who knows because each time I ask I get a different answer. 4. Milk cars. Tooling was stolen from a company in Romania. Ok, the redesign was total crap. Trucks not sprung, cheap. Lobster claws would cause the car to derail. Paint chipping off the door hinges. I've spent time and money converting the ones I bought to Kadee and buying up Lionel's inventory of trucks from the mid 2000's run. Now for the prices Lionel is charging. Lets start with the new Milk cars. 80 bucks for all those defects. How much did the new Big Boy cost? 2400.00? While mostly free of defects there have been reports of some. I will give Lionel credit for somethings. I received a full refund on the Mogul. The B&A Berkshire, Lionel is producing new tooling and keeping the 2022 price. Time will tell if this engine will live up to the Kline tooling.
So are we asking to much? At these prices heck NO!
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Post by runamuckchuck on Feb 29, 2024 1:32:36 GMT
In my business, the majority of problems are the result of unrealized expectations.
With the hyperbole rampant in their catalogs, and on line videos/live streams Lionel sets a very high bar for themselves which as recent history indicates they fail to meet on a variety of criteria.
The failure to meet or exceed expectations that they (Lionel) creates is compounded by their apparent indifference to acknowledge and correct/fix the problems. These are not warranty repair issues. These are fundamental/material failures to produce a product which functions correctly, or appears as advertised.
K4s anyone? Decapods anyone? Yueltide anyone? 20th Century anyone? Just to name a few recent and long standing (gears) examples.
I really don't care for the premise that these problems only constitute a small (acceptable) percentage of the total units delivered.
It is not an acceptable percentage for those consumers who are affected.
As for this affecting my buying habits in O gauge, picture a funnel. My previous buying BTO and otherwise was near the top (wide) portion of the funnel. Now, I am at the bottom/narrow end of the funnel.
The money I have saved by not buying O gauge has been directed back to tinplate, both O gauge and Standard.
The criticisms, complaints, and at times anger expressed towards our model train importers are largely the result of self inflicted wounds which somehow get turned around by those same importers and their minions into counterclaims that we consumers are unreasonable, perfectionist, rivet counting professional malcontents.
I am done with being gaslighted.
My simple suggestion to the train importers, stand and deliver.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Feb 29, 2024 2:16:21 GMT
... Are you willing to buy more now? You want to see it before laying out the dollars or will you use the BTO system. And the number 1 question, do you still trust the companies to build the best product they can and stand behind it!! ...
So no... I don't think we're asking "too much" of the importers -- or people in general -- to be good citizens and DO THE RIGHT THING. But they have to live with themselves -- not to mention the conclusions that we will draw about their poor business practices.
As for the BTO model... it's a double-edged sword no matter how we look at it.
On one hand, it's here to stay. We might see some variations on the theme in coming months/years. But generally speaking, I don't see the importers going back to the business model where they hold lots of inventory and announce products when they arrive Stateside. Those days are gone, gone, gone. And they like pushing the risk off to their dealer network and model train enthusiasts.
On the other hand, nobody says we MUST pre-order BTO products... because for the most part, it seems dealers continue to order "extra's". And some are now even announcing custom-runs AFTER the BTO pre-order deadline expires. But if we choose to wait and see what's delivered before committing funds, don't be disappointed when products arrive Stateside and are scarfed up within DAYS by people who like what they see/hear on YouTube videos.
It's just a standard part of the landscape these days.
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Post by edlloyd on Feb 29, 2024 2:45:07 GMT
Not much to like right now in the train world. Quality control and pricing are killing the hobbyist. I don't really buy to much new stuff anymore. Plenty of nice used or new old stock out there at good prices. You just have to be patient.
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Post by Traindiesel! on Feb 29, 2024 5:37:16 GMT
Dear Mr. Fantasy make us a train
Something to make us all happy
Do anything, take us out of this gloom
Make some freight, or some steam, make it snappy
You are the one who can make us all smile
But not doing that you break out in tears
Please don't be sad if we don’t buy what you had
We wouldn't have known you all these years
Dear Mr. Fantasy make us a train
Something to make us all happy
Do anything, take us out of this gloom
Make some freight, or some steam, make it snappy
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Apologies to Traffic.
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Post by seayakbill on Feb 29, 2024 10:06:28 GMT
Lionel pricing is at a point that a lot of electric train operators { not collectors } are looking for alternatives. When operating a freight train on your layout folks are not counting rivets as the freight cars pass by. They are looking at paint schemes that stand out and catch your attention. This is why Menards and RMT are selling a significant amount of freight cars in the $25 to $30 range. The operator who is collecting his SS check or pension check and who is closing in on the check out line starts thinking do I really need to spend $100 to $120 for a freight car with the correct amount of rivets.
Bill
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Post by Adam on Feb 29, 2024 11:54:20 GMT
Something big changed in this hobby from when I was a kid in the 70s/80s to now. I don't remember there being these very high end, ultra prototypical, models as are bring produced now (maybe I just didn't know). For me back then this was a toy train hobby. I didn't even call it a hobby. To me it was a toy.
I don't think too much about paint color, or other cosmetic mistakes to be honest. But that is because I still think of this as a toy train hobby and don't spend the big bucks.
But if I did spend thousands on a train, I sure would want it to be perfect.
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Post by josef on Feb 29, 2024 12:28:13 GMT
Asking that an expectation of a product in the case of a toy that cost for many a couple or more weeks of wages be correct and operate correctly, is an "expectation" to be expected by the consumer.
If some of these products that have failed were vehicles or appliances, they would be called "Lemons". There would be re-calls.
If you bought a refrigerator for over 2000.00 (what some engines now cost), and it failed immediately, parts missing, or the paint work was way off, would you repair it? Would you expect parts to be readily available?
NO, its not asking to much of Lionel or MTH to meet consumers expectation.
Odd that there are those in the hobby that accept these failures, would they feel the same way if they plugged in the new Microwave which costs today a fraction of a new engine and it failed? Or woke up and found their 2000.00 new refrigerator the next day had failed?
But, to many accept failures in high priced toys, seems some expect them or that to happen, and still accept it.
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Post by runamuckchuck on Feb 29, 2024 12:52:09 GMT
Dear Mr. Fantasy make us a train
Something to make us all happy
Do anything, take us out of this gloom
Make some freight, or some steam, make it snappy
You are the one who can make us all smile
But not doing that you break out in tears
Please don't be sad if we don’t buy what you had
We wouldn't have known you all these years
Dear Mr. Fantasy make us a train
Something to make us all happy
Do anything, take us out of this gloom
Make some freight, or some steam, make it snappy
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Apologies to Traffic. Apologies are inadequate! 
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Post by dlagrua on Feb 29, 2024 14:05:06 GMT
When people spend considerable money for a product, they should expect and have every right to deserve quality, value and reliability. That should apply to everything that we purchase including model trains.
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Post by Joe Saggese on Feb 29, 2024 15:24:23 GMT
Lionel pricing is at a point that a lot of electric train operators { not collectors } are looking for alternatives. When operating a freight train on your layout folks are not counting rivets as the freight cars pass by. They are looking at paint schemes that stand out and catch your attention. This is why Menards and RMT are selling a significant amount of freight cars in the $25 to $30 range. The operator who is collecting his SS check or pension check and who is closing in on the check out line starts thinking do I really need to spend $100 to $120 for a freight car with the correct amount of rivets. Bill I |
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Post by trainman9 on Feb 29, 2024 17:40:47 GMT
I guess I’ve been pretty lucky lately my last two new purchases, Legacy NYC Atlantic and Reading and Northern 4-6-0. I do have two of the Legacy H10’s and have a solution to the gear issue I just need to find someone to install the shims for me.
As for warranties, I have posted on other forums an orange to apples comparison. I play guitar, acoustic specifically and have two Martin acoustic electrics I purchased new. One was made in Nazareth PA and cost $1600 and the other at the factory in Mexico and cost $850. Both have a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser against manufacturing defects. So, if I were to live long enough and either one needed a neck reset, an expensive procedure, it will be done free of charge. Just file a claim and get it to the Martin factory in Nazareth PA no questions asked. Any other issues would be taken care of in the same way.
I think manny of us would be more than comfortable if the manufacturers of model railroad products would at least offer an extended warranty since some of the issues may not show up for a number of years. In the case of the gear issue I think they know there is an issue and should take a more proactive role in addressing the problems. Perhaps they could go back to their independent service stations and compensate them for repairs of this type when a product is out of warranty.
Too much to ask!
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Post by dlagrua on Feb 29, 2024 23:59:21 GMT
Lionel pricing is at a point that a lot of electric train operators { not collectors } are looking for alternatives. When operating a freight train on your layout folks are not counting rivets as the freight cars pass by. They are looking at paint schemes that stand out and catch your attention. This is why Menards and RMT are selling a significant amount of freight cars in the $25 to $30 range. The operator who is collecting his SS check or pension check and who is closing in on the check out line starts thinking do I really need to spend $100 to $120 for a freight car with the correct amount of rivets. Bill I agree that the pricing of new Lionel equipment is completely out of hand. On a running layout no visitor could tell the difference between a Lionel , MTH, K-Line, Williams, Weaver, RMT, Industrial rail or Menards boxcar so why the large difference in price between a $90 car and a $20 car? At last weekends train meet in Allentown there were bargains all over and you didn't have to break the bank to come home with a train set. The big L brand now means nothing to me but a price gouging company that is existing on name only. Whatever your choice you are buying a Chinese made item; many of them made in the same overseas factory using the identical tooling
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Post by healey36 on Mar 1, 2024 0:37:28 GMT
You guys must not remember Richard Kughn's first few years...everything (locos) was a grand or more, and that was the late 1980s. Adjusted for inflation, maybe the new Lionel production is a bargain  |
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