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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 10:53:39 GMT
While helping a friend troubleshoot a weird issue we discovered when the Lionel passenger cars come on the in rush of current to charge the capacitors is almost 8 amps. His TMCC direct lockon would trip with 7 cars but fine with 6. He could add a 7th car once the others were lit. I went home and used my ZWL to observe the initial current draw on my 8 cars. We thought his cars had a problem but this is just the nature of the cars coming up. Thought the group would find this interesting.
Here are the results...
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 7, 2020 12:12:01 GMT
That’s very interesting - thanks for posting. Are these the first or later run of 21” ABS cars? I have one set of each and noticed some differences in the time the LED lighting gets up to full brightness. I never checked the current draw but I can’t imagine multiple cars were actually intended to draw that much on powering up.
I have never understood why Lionel went over to the super caps they use; aftermarket LED passenger lighting kits like those from Hennings work better in terms of getting full brightness quick and not taking ages for the lights to go off after the track is powered down.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 12:14:09 GMT
That’s very interesting - thanks for posting. Are these the first or later run of 21” ABS cars? I have one set of each and noticed some differences in the time the LED lighting gets up to full brightness. I never checked the current draw but I can’t imagine multiple cars were actually intended to draw that much on powering up. I have never understood why Lionel went over to the super caps they use; aftermarket LED passenger lighting kits like those from Hennings work better in terms of getting full brightness quick and not taking ages for the lights to go off after the track is powered down. These are the 18" Polar Express cars.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 12:47:48 GMT
Frankly that's nuts. What size capacitors did Lionel use? You only need a capacitor large enough to absorb the power interruptions over switches and the like.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 7, 2020 12:55:45 GMT
That’s very interesting - thanks for posting. Are these the first or later run of 21” ABS cars? I have one set of each and noticed some differences in the time the LED lighting gets up to full brightness. I never checked the current draw but I can’t imagine multiple cars were actually intended to draw that much on powering up. I have never understood why Lionel went over to the super caps they use; aftermarket LED passenger lighting kits like those from Hennings work better in terms of getting full brightness quick and not taking ages for the lights to go off after the track is powered down. These are the 18" Polar Express cars. Well, I assume that Lionel instals the same lighting strips in all their current production. However, if I remember correctly the strips in the first run of 21" ABS cars actually had two capacitors. In any case, as Gary says, I can't see the point of using capacitors that take a long time to power up and down if the real purpose is just to stop flickering while the car is moving.
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Post by ptc on Jan 7, 2020 15:52:10 GMT
Thanks for the information, Marty. I think it is ridiculous to have to deal with an issue like this. The thinking cap at Lionel must have been lost.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 16:20:15 GMT
Well this certainly wasn't posted to start bashing Lionel but merely for informational purposes. I agree the its unnecessary to need the cars to glow for 30 seconds and a smaller cap could have been used. I have 8 cars and a PE Berk on the tracks, 1 of the cars being a sound diner. I can't imagine they redesigned these since Mike Reagan and Jon Z were there so I imagine this has been the case created during their tenor. I doubt this is anything new.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 7, 2020 20:27:00 GMT
Well this certainly wasn't posted to start bashing Lionel but merely for informational purposes. I agree the its unnecessary to need the cars to glow for 30 seconds and a smaller cap could have been used. I have 8 cars and a PE Berk on the tracks, 1 of the cars being a sound diner. I can't imagine they redesigned these since Mike Reagan and Jon Z were there so I imagine this has been the case created during their tenor. I doubt this is anything new. You’re right to mention that this is not a pure bashing exercise and, as you say, when the super-capped LED strips were introduced, Mike R and Jon Z were still on board. Thinking about it further, however, maybe their presence made no real difference; maybe train importers just get the components their factories can source in quantity and don’t have any input on design or operating specs. For example, for years GGD used LED strips with bulbous lenses that were too short for their scale passenger cars. I doubt that the amp draw will be an issue for me but I might well consider substituting an aftermarket power source for the gear on Lionel’s strips.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 20:41:34 GMT
Caps charge at the rate you feed em. Throttle the XFR slower.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 20:46:18 GMT
Caps charge at the rate you feed em. Throttle the XFR slower. For my ZWL that's not a problem but when you use a 180W brick and the TMCC lockon, it's just an on / off switch.
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Post by ptc on Jan 7, 2020 21:09:27 GMT
I agree that this should not be a bashing thread, but a delayed feature for the lights to go off slowly when the power is being shut down, who really needs this feature? Seems pretty silly to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 11:08:41 GMT
I agree that this should not be a bashing thread, but a delayed feature for the lights to go off slowly when the power is being shut down, who really needs this feature? Seems pretty silly to me. Brian I agree. A few seconds of sustained lighting is all we need. The Lionel solution is a bit overkill. I imagine at the time everyone thought it was cool but the in rush is definitely an issue for some. Maybe the current engineering staff will change that. I won't modify mine until after the warranty period is up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 13:17:33 GMT
Caps charge at the rate you feed em. Throttle the XFR slower. For my ZWL that's not a problem but when you use a 180W brick and the TMCC lockon, it's just an on / off switch. That's true Marty. However, the TMCC and or Legacy power masters can also be configured to roll power up via the CAB1 or CAB2 just like a XFR.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Jan 8, 2020 13:31:51 GMT
I can't see that the current draw will be an issue for me but the long power up and down times already are. I had not thought of substituting a different power source before reading this thread and I might try that next time I have one of my 21" cars open.
I don't know whether the initial current draw could have any effect on other electronics, such as the boards in a Legacy StationSounds diner. I haven't noticed anything amiss with mine but so far I have only had a few of the super capped cars on the track at one time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 13:35:13 GMT
For my ZWL that's not a problem but when you use a 180W brick and the TMCC lockon, it's just an on / off switch. That's true Marty. However, the TMCC and or Legacy power masters can also be configured to roll power up via the CAB1 or CAB2 just like a XFR. Yes I understand that but again he is using a TMCC Lock On and a brick without any other variable control. Unless he adds a powermaster he will need to be aware of this issue, which he now is.
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