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Post by mikepa on Apr 26, 2023 13:42:04 GMT
I've installed it correctly (I think). When I flip the switch, the corral vibrates and when the car rolls over the 364C, the car buzzes, but the doors never open. Any suggestions for further diagnosis? Thanks!
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Post by josef on Apr 26, 2023 14:55:44 GMT
The Horse car and cattle car are the same in operation. I've fixed several that had same problem. Here's a video that may help and show how it works.
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Post by mikepa on Apr 27, 2023 12:31:17 GMT
Thanks for the link.. The cattle car doesn't use a solenoid (see picture below). I find it hard to believe, but not impossible, that two horse cars would both have failed solenoids. I can manually lower the doors (I took the shells off) and the doors smoothly lower, no binding. Any ideas, in addition to replacing the solenoid? How can I test the solenoid?
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Post by Sir James on Apr 27, 2023 13:46:17 GMT
Horse car was one of their worst accessories ever. I have talked to others and if you can get the horses up the ramp you've done better than most. Of course someone will say oh mine works great, well good for them.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 27, 2023 16:27:19 GMT
Thanks for the link.. The cattle car doesn't use a solenoid (see picture below). I find it hard to believe, but not impossible, that two horse cars would both have failed solenoids. I can manually lower the doors (I took the shells off) and the doors smoothly lower, no binding. Any ideas, in addition to replacing the solenoid? How can I test the solenoid? Sorry, I am only weighing in because that sure looks like a solenoid or large coil actuator to me, and it looks like the plunger is what moves the mechanism that opens the doors (bearing mind that this is an AC accessory and the components Lionel used were their own design). In any case, it would help to know which of the various cattle car models this is - there were at least a couple of postwar models, an MPC one (SKU 6-19800) and a later one; which is yours? Schematics and repair guides should be available for all of them or resources like Walter's video.
It's probably too much/unnecessary info but there is a female O gauge hobbyist, Fran Blanche, who has produced a series of YouTube vids on Lionel electronics and accessories and I have recently watched one that explains how an original E-unit and AC solenoid work, which includes reference to there being a hole at the top of the solenoid that lets in air pressure and may become blocked (towards the end of the vid with the main explanation starting about 18 mins. in): www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP89xhVLK9o
It may be that in both of your cases the failure is the same thing and may be mainly mechanical/lubrication from the age of these accessories.
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Post by mikepa on Apr 27, 2023 16:53:51 GMT
It's not a cattle car accessory, it is the Lionel Horse Corral Model 3356 and you are correct, the plunger is supposed to open the doors. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when the car rolls onto the OTC Lockon, the corral does vibrate, but the plunger does not move and, as far as I can see, doesn't even try to move. If I open the doors manually, the entire mechanism, including the plunger, moves smoothly.
EDIT - Voltages Center rail to outside rail - 15.7 volts Center rail to wire at the top of the coil - 15.7 volts OTC Lockon - 15.7 volts
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 27, 2023 19:29:41 GMT
It's not a cattle car accessory, it is the Lionel Horse Corral Model 3356 and you are correct, the plunger is supposed to open the doors. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when the car rolls onto the OTC Lockon, the corral does vibrate, but the plunger does not move and, as far as I can see, doesn't even try to move. If I open the doors manually, the entire mechanism, including the plunger, moves smoothly. EDIT - VoltagesCenter rail to outside rail - 15.7 volts Center rail to wire at the top of the coil - 15.7 volts OTC Lockon - 15.7 volts Sorry, my mistake between horses and cows! I expect you might have seen this but I attach a copy of the Lionel Service Manual for this particular car. I note what it says on the top right column on page 1 about how the car coil mechanism is powered, which is not what I expected after watching Walter's video. However, if you are getting a buzz from/vibration inside the car when it is on the OTC lockon, that seems to rule out a faulty electrical connection/circuit to track power. But what I have sometimes seen with these plunger actuators is that they require significant track voltage to "snap" into play - in one case where there's such a device in a car of mine that runs off track power it won't function properly (as in engaging with sufficient force) unless it is right over the main power input from the transformer, which I assume means that there is a voltage drop at other places on the track. How far away from the transformer is the OTC and how is it wired to it?
Incidentally, your measurements of track voltages are similar to mine - never more than 16 where the lockon is attached to the track, and less elsewhere, even though the gauge on my ZW-L reads 18 or even 20 volts.
LionelServiceManual_3356_Horse Car.pdf (1.74 MB)
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Post by josef on Apr 27, 2023 21:25:10 GMT
This maybe way off but had a friend that had a carpet layout and asked me to look at his slow sometimes not opening doors. Seems over time dirt/dust had gotten into the plunger. I had it on my work bench and sprayed the heck out of the solenoid and plunger with spray electronic cleaner. It was dirty and lotsa black came running down. Hooked just the solenoid up to transformer and when power applied worked. Put back together and tested again, worked perfectly. Might give it a try. Its the solenoid plunger when working that opens and shuts the doors.
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Post by mikepa on Apr 28, 2023 17:15:27 GMT
This maybe way off but had a friend that had a carpet layout and asked me to look at his slow sometimes not opening doors. Seems over time dirt/dust had gotten into the plunger. I had it on my work bench and sprayed the heck out of the solenoid and plunger with spray electronic cleaner. It was dirty and lotsa black came running down. Hooked just the solenoid up to transformer and when power applied worked. Put back together and tested again, worked perfectly. Might give it a try. It's the solenoid plunger when working that opens and shuts the doors. Well, I've narrowed down where the problem might be. All I have to do is figure out how to fix it. I cleaned the solenoid and plunger. Neither was all that dirty but wanted to eliminate that as the source of the problem. I put the car on the track, rolled over the 364C. The corral buzzed slightly. When I flipped the switch (the one that comes with the horse corral), it buzzed substantially more. HOWEVER, the horse car did not buzz at all, regardless of the position of the switch. Hmm, interesting. So, I connected jumper wires from 1. Outside rail to the frame of the horse car. 2. Center rail to the bare wire coming off the solenoid. Turned power on from my 1033. DOORS OPENED! then 3. Center rail to the 'shoe' on the bottom of the car. Turned power on from my 1033. DOORS OPENED! This tells me I must have something wired incorrectly. Now I just have to identify what.
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Post by josef on Apr 28, 2023 19:07:52 GMT
This maybe way off but had a friend that had a carpet layout and asked me to look at his slow sometimes not opening doors. Seems over time dirt/dust had gotten into the plunger. I had it on my work bench and sprayed the heck out of the solenoid and plunger with spray electronic cleaner. It was dirty and lotsa black came running down. Hooked just the solenoid up to transformer and when power applied worked. Put back together and tested again, worked perfectly. Might give it a try. It's the solenoid plunger when working that opens and shuts the doors. Well, I've narrowed down where the problem might be. All I have to do is figure out how to fix it. I cleaned the solenoid and plunger. Neither was all that dirty but wanted to eliminate that as the source of the problem. I put the car on the track, rolled over the 364C. The corral buzzed slightly. When I flipped the switch (the one that comes with the horse corral), it buzzed substantially more. HOWEVER, the horse car did not buzz at all, regardless of the position of the switch. Hmm, interesting. So, I connected jumper wires from 1. Outside rail to the frame of the horse car. 2. Center rail to the bare wire coming off the solenoid. Turned power on from my 1033. DOORS OPENED! then 3. Center rail to the 'shoe' on the bottom of the car. Turned power on from my 1033. DOORS OPENED! This tells me I must have something wired incorrectly. Now I just have to identify what. I thought you may have tried all that, but your doing good and you possible discovered the problem. It sounds like as you said a wiring problem or pickup problem between track and the car. I bet you'll have it working in no time now. Good luck and again, your on the right track to problem solving also clean your wheels, pickup, shoe on track, etc. nothing hinders these more then dirt. Keep us informed.
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Post by mikepa on Apr 29, 2023 15:51:14 GMT
I appreciate the encouragement but... I rewired the Horse Corral, made no difference. The only thing I can think to try is replacing the thing on the bottom of the car, once I figure out what it is called. P.S. I know it is making electrical contact because when I look for voltage (meter red lead on the coil wire and black lead on the outside rail) I see 15.7 volts.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 29, 2023 16:37:57 GMT
I hate it when these traditional accessories don't work as they should but as innumerable people have said over the years, they are a crude design.
In your case I can only think that there isn't enough voltage getting to the solenoid to make it 'pop' as it should. You've probably already seen this part of the Lionel manual that describes the circuit:
I would have thought nearly 16 volts from the track is enough but I am not sure exactly how the OTC works in tandem with the solenoid and what the contact is between them although it appears to be through the 'shoe'. Have you measured the voltage right at the connections to the solenoid?
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Post by mikepa on Apr 29, 2023 16:56:36 GMT
Have you measured the voltage right at the connections to the solenoid? Yep, 15.7 volts. If I use jumpers and connect directly to the solenoid, the doors work which is why I am thinking it is the 'foot' on the truck or the connector. I tried a different connector, same issue. Sanded the rails on the connector. No luck.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 29, 2023 20:31:31 GMT
Have you measured the voltage right at the connections to the solenoid? Yep, 15.7 volts. If I use jumpers and connect directly to the solenoid, the doors work which is why I am thinking it is the 'foot' on the truck or the connector. I tried a different connector, same issue. Sanded the rails on the connector. No luck. One last try based on what you have said: I agree that, based on the Lionel description of the circuit, the issue could be with the pickup shoe. I had not fully taken on board that the coil device in the car does double duty in opening the doors and providing the vibration to the runway, so if there's no power getting to it for some reason you won't have either function operating - right? I assume that as the circuit grounds to the frame and the outside rails through the wheels the shoe must be insulated from the truck somehow. There's no parts diagram I can find to confirm this and I guess if the shoe insulation had failed but it was conducting current you would have had a short by now. So there might be some reason why the shoe has failed and isn't conducting anything to the connector. I've seen photos of the shoes on these and other cars but have no idea what they are made of.
All very frustrating - please post when you try again.
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Post by mikepa on Apr 30, 2023 19:02:36 GMT
Yep, 15.7 volts. If I use jumpers and connect directly to the solenoid, the doors work which is why I am thinking it is the 'foot' on the truck or the connector. I tried a different connector, same issue. Sanded the rails on the connector. No luck. One last try based on what you have said: I agree that, based on the Lionel description of the circuit, the issue could be with the pickup shoe. I had not fully taken on board that the coil device in the car does double duty in opening the doors and providing the vibration to the runway, so if there's no power getting to it for some reason you won't have either function operating - right? I assume that as the circuit grounds to the frame and the outside rails through the wheels the shoe must be insulated from the truck somehow. There's no parts diagram I can find to confirm this and I guess if the shoe insulation had failed but it was conducting current you would have had a short by now. So there might be some reason why the shoe has failed and isn't conducting anything to the connector. I've seen photos of the shoes on these and other cars but have no idea what they are made of.
All very frustrating - please post when you try again. Some additional testing. Not sure what it means. I did 2 tests one with the 'door bar' in the correct position (left picture - fail), one with the door bar in the wrong position (right picture) and the solenoid lifted. In each test, I just ran the car over the connector. No other changes.
It is like with the bar in the correct position, the solenoid does not have enough 'power' to lift the bar. Note that the corral is 4 feet away from the only track Lockon and shows 15.7 volts (1033 transformer)
Thoughts?
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