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Post by edwardh on Apr 12, 2021 14:15:19 GMT
I've seen a list of 2021 Big Book cancellations, the Polar Express Acela was not listed as being canceled. The New Haven, Milwaukee Road, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania Acelas are listed as being canceled.
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Post by lionelllc on Apr 12, 2021 14:30:10 GMT
Santa Fe Warbonnet Acela was NOT on the cancellation list either. Earlier comment about "all Acela's other than Amtrak were cancelled" is wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2021 16:47:44 GMT
Lionel should give up on HO. It never works for them. While that is true, everytime Lionel gets into HO it's not well received. I think Lionel move into other scales is whats going to save them in the future. With the poor quality of late from Lionel I would bet sales will take a hit sooner or later. Unless they can turn it around.
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Post by MichRR714 on Apr 12, 2021 17:01:36 GMT
Hopefully the recent Lionel cancellations will have them reevaluate the product they are trying to deliver. In contrast the current MTH model of special dealer runs seems to assure that in smaller quantities they are making what the consumer wants to purchase. I know MTH has certainly hosed my wallet.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Apr 12, 2021 17:16:00 GMT
... In contrast the current MTH model of special dealer runs seems to assure that in smaller quantities they are making what the consumer wants to purchase. I know MTH has certainly hosed my wallet. With few exceptions, Lionel's "big book" didn't phase me too much this year. But MTH's slow unveiling of product -- seemingly week by week -- has been intriguing to say the least. And it's cost me a few dollars as well.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 12, 2021 18:35:50 GMT
I've seen a list of 2021 Big Book cancellations, the Polar Express Acela was not listed as being canceled. The New Haven, Milwaukee Road, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania Acelas are listed as being canceled. Is there a link to/specific source for this list? I was certainly not in for an Acela but have concerns about which versions of the Veranda are going to be produced.
At an earlier stage, my dealer told me he thought that all the cataloged versions of the Veranda would be produced, if only in smallish numbers for some. I fear mine (the Greyhound) will be one of them! (The Army version seems to be very popular indeed judging by the numbers of people who have said they want it.)
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 12, 2021 18:45:09 GMT
Lionel should give up on HO. It never works for them. While that is true, everytime Lionel gets into HO it's not well received. I think Lionel move into other scales is whats going to save them in the future. With the poor quality of late from Lionel I would bet sales will take a hit sooner or later. Unless they can turn it around. Agreed. It's the build quality that is sub-standard, wherever in the Far East they are having these things manufactured. Examples from my own limited experience: (1) a VL engine with the main smoke unit inputs wired in reverse so that I had to open the thing up and put them right after guessing what was the cause of the problem (Lionel warranty is useless anyway), and (2) bearing caps on passenger car trucks (all made in Viet Nam) detaching to be found in the bottom of the box - because they are not glued on, just press-fitted.
Design and paint scheme execution were fine for me but I get the impression that Lionel is rushing product to market and cutting corners on manufacturing costs while scaling new heights on the price front.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2021 21:23:53 GMT
Lionel should give up on HO. It never works for them. While that is true, everytime Lionel gets into HO it's not well received. I think Lionel move into other scales is whats going to save them in the future. With the poor quality of late from Lionel I would bet sales will take a hit sooner or later. Unless they can turn it around. Lionel did not enter into the HO market willingly from what I heard. WB demanded it as a condition of their PE licensing, because they wanted single source mfg for the entire PE train line. So Lionel obviously tried to leverage that stipulation into something profitable, probably via 3rd party molds/tooling.
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Post by stoshu on Apr 12, 2021 21:58:18 GMT
When I looked at the Big Book, I questioned how much of this can the market embrace. To me, it was top heavy with product. As in all cases, it will come down to what the customers are willing to pony up their dollars for. I for one have will not buy a pony in this race. Nothing that is appropriate for our layout.
To me Lionel isn't quite sure what to produce. So just take the shot gun effect and see what sticks. It's to their advantage in this BTO world.....
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Post by david1 on Apr 13, 2021 5:01:05 GMT
I saw nothing in the catalog that was of interest to me. The LC K4 looks nice but that is the only thing. Did not order though.
Btw there will be a allot more cancellations from Lionel, can we say verandas, most of them will be cancelled.
Dave
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Post by rockymountaineer on Apr 13, 2021 11:39:33 GMT
... Btw there will be a allot more cancellations from Lionel, can we say verandas, most of them will be cancelled. Dave The verandas were a big standout in this year’s catalog. I have my eye on the Alaska RR model if it’s made — and if these are good performers. But I’m also prepared if Lionel pulls the plug on it / them. It’s part of the price we pay these days for wanting the flexibility to go shopping when products arrive at stores here in the States. I’m counting on larger dealers to order “extras”. But if they don’t, I’m OK with that too.
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 13, 2021 12:19:05 GMT
... Btw there will be a allot more cancellations from Lionel, can we say verandas, most of them will be cancelled.Dave The verandas were a big standout in this year’s catalog. I have my eye on the Alaska RR model if it’s made — and if these are good performers. But I’m also prepared if Lionel pulls the plug on it / them. It’s part of the price we pay these days for wanting the flexibility to go shopping when products arrive at stores here in the States. I’m counting on larger dealers to order “extras”. But if they don’t, I’m OK with that too. As I haven’t seen any cancellation list that includes the bigger BTO engines from the last catalog, I did a check of three main dealer sites, including Charles Ro, to see what they are still listing - on the basis that these dealers would be likely to know what Lionel is still intending to make and what has already been dropped.
Only the Amtrak version of the Acela is listed on any of them, which is consistent with all the rest being dropped. By contrast, all three still list all 10 versions of the Verandas as available to pre-order.
Incidentally, the 4 versions of the 2-10-10-2 are still listed, too.
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Post by edwardh on Apr 13, 2021 14:13:10 GMT
This list is from a well known sponsor on the "other website":
We just got word from Lionel that the following items have been cancelled due to insufficient orders:
American Flyer - S Scale:
2117030 - Legacy "Reading & Northern" Excursion Set
Lionel - O Scale:
2122110 Legacy High Speed Train Set "Milwaukee Road"
2122120 Legacy High Speed Train Set "New Haven"
2122130 Legacy High Speed Train Set "Pennsylvania"
2122150 Legacy High Speed Train Set "Union Pacific"
2127410 High Speed Train "Milwaukee Road" Expansion Pack (3-Car)
2127420 High Speed Train "New Haven" Expansion Pack (3-Car)
2127430 High Speed Train "Pennsylvania" Expansion Pack (3-Car)
2127450 High Speed Train "Union Pacific" Expansion Pack (3-Car)
2130020 Santa on the Roof House
2130030 Cock & Bull Tavern (blt up)
2130040 Russell house (blt up)
2130060 Large house (kit)
2130080 Design-Your-Own House Kit
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Post by harborbelt70 on Apr 13, 2021 14:31:41 GMT
This list is from a well known sponsor on the "other website": We just got word from Lionel that the following items have been cancelled due to insufficient orders: . . . . Lionel - O Scale: 2122110 Legacy High Speed Train Set "Milwaukee Road" 2122120 Legacy High Speed Train Set "New Haven" 2122130 Legacy High Speed Train Set "Pennsylvania" 2122150 Legacy High Speed Train Set "Union Pacific" 2127410 High Speed Train "Milwaukee Road" Expansion Pack (3-Car) 2127420 High Speed Train "New Haven" Expansion Pack (3-Car) 2127430 High Speed Train "Pennsylvania" Expansion Pack (3-Car) 2127450 High Speed Train "Union Pacific" Expansion Pack (3-Car) Thank you very much for the info - I looked for but had not found it "over there." Notably, neither the Santa Fe nor the Polar Express versions of the Acela are on this list, but they are no longer on the dealer sites I checked. Not an issue for me personally, and I am not surprised that so many of the Acela versions bombed having regard to the huge price.
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Post by rockymountaineer on Apr 13, 2021 15:11:39 GMT
Interesting discussion about Lionel cancellations. Offering lots of roadnames for a given product cuts both ways.
On one hand, offering multiple liveries helps fill out a production run to meet factory minimum requirements, while also offering enthusiasts the opportunity to acquire lesser-known roadnames made in smaller quantities. That works... as long as the roadname doesn't involve too much in the way of extra time and costs for setting up graphics. For basic steam locomotives, the change in roadname/roadnumber could be as simple as different lettering/numbering or modest paint changes such as trim highlights and such.
On the other hand -- using the Acelas and Verandas as good examples of electric and diesel locomotives -- a different roadname can involve intricate paint masks. So the number of pre-orders is more critical to coming out ahead of the game when fancier paint schemes and graphics are involved. Combine that with the bloated price point of the Acela trains, I'm not at all surprised to see a bunch of those canceled. In fact, part of me is surprised that the Acela is even being made at all. Whereas the Veranda -- while definitely not chump change -- comes in at a price-point well under Lionel's Vision Line products. Yet some of those paint schemes are pretty intricate. Time will tell what happens with the Verandas.
Unfortunately, Lionel gets confused easily in this market. They want to appeal to enthusiasts... hence the exotic catalogs that are getting larger with each issue. Yet when it comes to production, they only seem to communicate to dealers. They seldom keep enthusiasts informed. Scott Mann is the gold reference-standard when it comes to keeping consumers informed. Lionel needs to learn more from Scott in this regard.
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